How would having no currency work?

[T'Girl]

analyze the system we're here proposing

where most of the population is practically unemployed

So basically Haiti.

where extremely cheap energy and cheap production of mass goods

That's your current China and Indonesia.

enabled a functional, ideal welfare state

Sweden?

and is able to spend most of it's time on non-work activities

Crime?

Seriously, if you have a largely unemployed population, who really don't have anything they have to do, would this cause problems? Remember most criminals don't steal to send their children to good colleges. A lot of youth crime is people who "have nothing to do" and "are aimless." It's been suggested in other threads that replicators might be hard programmed not to dispense certain items, weapons was one, but drugs were another, acquisition of drugs is another basis for crime in society.

 

[Romulan_spy]

To answer the original question of this thread: I don't see a problem with the Federation being able to trade without currency. They could simply use a bartering system. If the Federation needed something from another civ, they would simply have to offer something in return that the other civ wants.

 

[infinix]

analyze the system we're here proposing

where most of the population is practically unemployed

So basically Haiti.

where extremely cheap energy and cheap production of mass goods

That's your current China and Indonesia.

enabled a functional, ideal welfare state

Sweden?

and is able to spend most of it's time on non-work activities

Crime?

Seriously, if you have a largely unemployed population, who really don't have anything they have to do, would this cause problems? Remember most criminals don't steal to send their children to good colleges. A lot of youth crime is people who "have nothing to do" and "are aimless." It's been suggested in other threads that replicators might be hard programmed not to dispense certain items, weapons was one, but drugs were another, acquisition of drugs is another basis for crime in society.

While I agree with what T'Girl's point, the examples T'Girl used are not very good. The average person living in Haiti, China, and Indonesia don't have access to the energy nor the goods that they are producing. For a typical worker at the FoxConn (the largest Apple contractor) plant in China, a base model ipad is worth about 5 months of pay. In these situations, even though there is abundant energy and goods, it means nothing if the masses don't have access to them.

If we are working from an premise where there are extremely cheap energy and extremely cheap basic life necessities (food, dwelling, clothing) how would it work and what would people work for? How do you define extremely cheap? What's the minimum amount of work required to feed a family of 4 through energy units?

Using energy as currency wouldn't really change anything from our current society. Whoever is in charge of distributing the energy units, whether it be government or corporations will still have more power and more control over those who are receiving the energy units. Even if the basic necessities are cheap, as long as people still desire the "nicer things" in life, they will work for the extra energy units to acquire those things. Currency based economy is currency based economy. It doesn't matter whether the currency is paper money or credits or gold or energy.

If we had a situation where every single person has unlimited access to unlimited *useful* energy, then our society will change beyond simply economy. Then we might be able to say that we really work because we love the work. At the same time, the vast majority will be lazy bums that don't want to do anything.

 

[Mister_Atoz]

I apologize in advance for this wall of text.

Okay, I'm not an economist but I'm going to throw down and try to explain how I think a "money less" economy would work in Star Trek, I am not, for one moment suggesting this would work in the real world, right up there with warp drive and transporters.

This system would not apply to all Federation words, just ones largely settled by Humans. Additionally, this system wouldn't work exactly the same on each planet, there would be differences based on the amount of resources made available to that planet.

On earth, the world government provides basic shelter and food for all of it's citizens. Replication technology and the abundance of energy has caused the basic cost of living to be virtually non-existent on developed worlds.

For Example, Billy has turned 18, on earth he is recognized as an adult and can legally move out of his parents' residence. If he can find a job or pursue secondary education, he is entitled to move into a civil apartment with basic amenities provided.

Billy's birth was registered 18 years ago, along with everyone else born on the planet. The Earth housing commission's mandate is to ensue there will be enough basic community housing available to these people by the time they reach age of maturity.

If Billy is willing to live with a cohabitant, or adult common law partner, he may apply for a slightly larger basic unit. On the ground floor of his community apartment complex is a basic cafeteria where he can sit down and serve himself a healthy meal, similar to these breakfast "nooks" we are ow seeing in motels these days.

As Billy eats his replicated, and somewhat bland eggs and bacon, he dons't really care that the materials to make his breakfast are mostly reconstituted from the organic waste products of the building's tenants. After all, his friends in Star Fleet have been doing it on board their starships for years.

Billy decides to go to school to become a civilian transporter operator, he also gets a job waiting tables at a local restaurant. In addition to fulfilling the basic requirements for his apartment, Billy earns a meager amount of "credits" which he can use to acquire luxuries.

He could, for example use them as "transporter credits" for that trip to France he'd like to take. His friends in Starfleet (a most respectable persuit in this society) are granted a number of these transporter credits as part of their more lucrative compensation.

Billy however tends to spend his credits on human-made clothing, rather than those somewhat uninspired outfits from the replomat in his apartment complex.

On his way to work, he passes the Bank of Bolias and wonders what it might be like to live on a Federation world that still has a currency based economy.

After all, the worst that could happen to him on earth should he loose his job is to either move back in with his parents or move into an unemployed residence where he might have to share an apartment with four or five people he has never met. Imagine having to share a bathroom with a Bolian immigrant?

At work one day, Billy overhears one of his customers talking about moving to one of the Federation's far flung colonies. They are always looking for skilled technicians to operate the automated agricultural plants and the compensation packages for settling one of those worlds is considerable. They may even get a tenured home, that they would effectively own.

However access to luxuries and technology on those planets is limited. What good are credits representing the combined wealth of the entire Federation if you have nothing to spend them on. Settling the colonies is best suited for those people like his aunt Alixus who actually prefer a simpler, more agrarian way of life.

Billy's employer Joseph is a master chef and effectively owns his New Orleans Cajun Restaurant. Many years ago, Joseph applied to the government to open this restaurant as a "Luxury" food service for the local populace. He is given the resources to create and maintain this restaurant, it is based on his vision, it is "his" restaurant as far as he is concerned, though technically it belongs to earth's populace as a whole.

Those in the community who have more demanding professions can use their luxury credits in order to occasionally enjoy fine dinning, prepared by human hands.

Joseph insists on only using organically produced foodstuffs grown on human run farms, and prepared by human hands, no replication, no reconstitution, and so he is able to "charge" more for his goods than that other Cajun Restaurant down the street that uses replicated meats. In fact, his patrons like Joseph's cooking so much, they often leave him tips. A thumb print on a pad, and they can deliver credits right to Joseph's account.

Joseph also effectively owns single family home. He is tenured, and has been providing a service to his community for years. He pressures his son Ben to do well for himself, so that when Joseph passes on, Ben will be able to keep the family home. He encourages his son to learn cajun style cooking so that some day Ben can take over both the house and the restaurant.

Ben however wants to join Starfleet. He doesn't want to disappoint his father, but serving in Starfleet is considered a most respectable profession. He knows that if he becomes Captain of a starship, and successfully completes a five year tour of duty, he will be granted a very spacious apartment, perhaps in San Fransisco like the legendary James Kirk.

Ben realizes that with each new planet he discovers, and with each new race he brings into the Federation brings new resources and new planets to settle to support the way of life Federation Citizens enjoy. Not to mention the fact that his own personal compensation package increases.

Ben notes to himself, that the concept is similar to the Roman Legion of over a millennia ago who would receive land in exchange for their 20 years of service.

A twenty year career in Starfleet might even afford Benjamin the ability to build a house on Bajor, not that the Bajorans wouldn't do everything in their power to allow their emissary to build a home there if he chose.

This story happens again, and again in families all over the planet. In France, a surely old man named Robert still laments his brother Jean-Luc running off the join Starfleet instead of working with him to keep their vineyard that has been in the family for generations. Robert hopes however that his son Renee doesn't run off and join the fleet, who will take over the vineyard if he does?

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I'm sure it has something to do with replicators being able to replicate, I don't think economics work like they used to. Sisko talked about transporter credits in DS9 once didn't he? Maybe they get credits, holodeck time etc for being a productive member of society.

He spoke of transporter credits to a cadet I believe. I think that recruits use them kind of like bathroom passes are used toda in schools

 

[Nightdiamond]

I still think that as long as there are replicators out there, there is no reason why a culture like Bajor should have to resort working desperately just to survive.


I love the idea of replicators being to provide at least basic resources for everyone.

At the same time, the no money idea seems impractical for the characters in Trek.

I've seen people who were helpless when they had to do something that involved money.

Vash was stranded on a planet because she didn't use money.

Jake couldn't purchase a baseball card even though his father is a high ranking officer in Starfleet.

And then watching humans doing things like being a maid or waiter for the joy of it..seems weird.

I always wondered why Kassidy Yates was a freighter captain since she is human-she often sounded like she was doing it for the money.

Either humans need money or they don't, either replicators can provide basic and even exotic needs or they can't.....

 

[Myasishchev]

Something I always wondered about in these discussions: why is it always assumed that the Federation is a free, market economy? It's not like it has to be.

 

[T'Girl]

I still think that as long as there are replicators out there, there is no reason why a culture like Bajor should have to resort working desperately just to survive.

Early on in the DS9 series, the Federation (or just Starfleet) provided Bajor with just two large replicators, after multiple Cardassian worlds were near destroyed by the Klingons the Federation provided twelve replicators. In both cases it sounded like this was a special, unusually and even a difficult thing for the Federation to do,.

Remember, the Enterprise Dee itself only carried two replicators, one in the saucer, one in the lower section, they're huge. And they might not be as ubiquitous as you think they are. While we did see a alien replicator-like device in ENT, the various dialogs would seem to indicate that as a piece of technology they have only been in existence for a few decades. The discussion between the two Picard brothers might indicate that they have only been available in the civilian market for a few years.

either replicators can provide basic and even exotic needs or they can't.....

There is a certain believe that what comes out of a replicator doesn't smell or taste quite right. Per Kurn, Scotty and others. Perhaps basic would be a more apt description. With the exception of Deanna's chocolate concoctions no one seem to be overtly enjoying what's dispensed.

why is it always assumed that the Federation is a free, market economy? It's not like it has to be.

It is an assumption of course, the series have never made it clear. Inside of this ambiguity there room for interpretation. Star Trek is a fantasy, one that some of us like to project ourselves into, a "free market economy" Federation is the Federation I would prefer to find myself in.

However I do reject the idea that the entire Federation has the exact same economics system, just as I reject the idea that all those planets and cultures have (somehow) the exact same political system. Realistically, the Federation expanse contains everything from oppressive and dysfunctional central planning, all the way through laissez faire and caveat emptor capitalism. But the "Federation itself" is a lightly regulated free market economy system, the Federation (at least as I see it) couldn't pull off central planning if it tried, the majority of the membership would simply leave.

Using energy as currency wouldn't really change anything from our current society.

It's still money. Whether it based on energy, or gold, or blue beads or the full Faith and Credit of U.S. Government, what's being described is still just a medium of exchange ... i.e. money.

Joseph ... [restaurant] though technically it belongs to earth's populace as a whole.

Robert ... [the] vineyard that has been in the family for generations.

How do you reconcile the two statements

Either Picard's property will be seize by "The State" (for the good of everyone of course) or Sisko's restaurant is private property.

 

[Mister_Atoz]

I'm suggesting that legally, both the Vineyard and the Restaurant are owned by the state. Joseph would have applied to some sort of local commission and been granted the ability and resources to create and maintain the restaurant based on his 'vision' as long as it continues to offer a service to the community. Joseph doesn't really 'own' the restaurant, but as far as he is concerned it is 'his' since he has been the legal proprietor for decades. If his son becomes a master chef, their is every reason for him to believe that his son will be allowed to maintain the restaurant after Joseph's death. Otherwise, the state decides what to do with the restaurant.

The Vineyard would be the same, the Picards do not own it, but they have been the operators for generations. Their local government isn't about to break with a long standing tradition, a heritage even if there is no reason to do so. When Jean-Luc runs off to join Starfleet, Robert is effectively forced to take over the Vineyard or risk loosing control of something that has been in the family for generations. With Robert and Rene now dead, control of the Vineyard must now pass to a new family.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I still think that as long as there are replicators out there, there is no reason why a culture like Bajor should have to resort working desperately just to survive.

Early on in the DS9 series, the Federation (or just Starfleet) provided Bajor with just two large replicators, after multiple Cardassian worlds were near destroyed by the Klingons the Federation provided twelve replicators. In both cases it sounded like this was a special, unusually and even a difficult thing for the Federation to do,.

I agree, but that's another problem.

In Call to Arms- They actually made a self replicating replicator! Complete with its own energy.

Theoretically, based on this, a simple replicator can be made by another replicator.

There's no reason why the Bajorans would have to struggle for so long when this technology is available except to advance the storyline.

When I saw Sisko's restaurant in Home Front I had the same reaction everyone else probably did; "Are they doing this for free?"

The same thing with Data's maid in AGT.

Each time I see a 'business' on earth on a Trek series, like Sisko's restaurant, it seems like children playing pretend with a cash register, its almost funny if not baffling.

 

[infinix]

I'm suggesting that legally, both the Vineyard and the Restaurant are owned by the state. Joseph would have applied to some sort of local commission and been granted the ability and resources to create and maintain the restaurant based on his 'vision' as long as it continues to offer a service to the community. Joseph doesn't really 'own' the restaurant, but as far as he is concerned it is 'his' since he has been the legal proprietor for decades. If his son becomes a master chef, their is every reason for him to believe that his son will be allowed to maintain the restaurant after Joseph's death. Otherwise, the state decides what to do with the restaurant.

The Vineyard would be the same, the Picards do not own it, but they have been the operators for generations. Their local government isn't about to break with a long standing tradition, a heritage even if there is no reason to do so. When Jean-Luc runs off to join Starfleet, Robert is effectively forced to take over the Vineyard or risk loosing control of something that has been in the family for generations. With Robert and Rene now dead, control of the Vineyard must now pass to a new family.

The only way for me to get around this one is to imagine it similar to what is going on in China right now. In China, when you buy a piece of land or a house, you don't actually own the property. What happens is that you sign a lease agreement with the gov't with a term of 99 years. When you sell any property, you are basically selling the lease agreement. The buyer can then renew the agreement for another 99 year term. So in theory, you don't ever own anything, but in practice, you can get very rich from these transactions.

As a rule, the Chinese gov't always reserve the right to declare imminent domain on ANYTHING in the country and take it back without paying you a single penny.

There are obviously differences between today's China and the 24th century Earth. But I can imagine on the 24th century Earth where people don't legally own any property per se, but they effectively have it for as long as they wish.

 

[Barbra45]

If the Picards take care of the Vinyard but do not Own It. Whats stopping someone from off the street from kicking them out and taking it over. It will be like claim jumping.


I know this has nothing to do with money. But what about the movie Rocky.

Does Star Trek have that mentality or is everything a handout so everyone is happy.

About the Money. Not everybdy is going to accept charity. Alot of people would rather work and make it on thier own.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Does Star Trek have that mentality or is everything a handout so everyone is happy.

About the Money. Not everybdy is going to accept charity. Alot of people would rather work and make it on thier own.

As weird as it sounds, it looks close to that.

It seems like the human population is getting their basic needs from the replicators.

They use words like "sold" and "paid" but ultimately they're only pretending to work for pay....

Like Jake saying he sold a book

Jake Sisko: I sold my first book today.
Quark: Really? How much did you get for it?
Jake Sisko: It's just a figure of speech. The Federation News Service is going to publish a book of my stories about life on the station under Dominion rule.
Quark: And they're not paying you?
Jake Sisko: No.
Quark: Well, then you have my sympathies, and the first round of drinks is on the house.
Jake Sisko: Really?
Quark: No. It's a figure of speech.

DS9 had a replimat, which if it's what I think it was, was place where replicators dispensed free food.

I don't think they're forcing people to work for the privileged of using a replicator.

 

[T'Girl]

In Call to Arms- They actually made a self replicating replicator! Complete with its own energy.

Yes, the self-replicating mine, one meter across in size, set to "swarm detonate", up to thirty mines per enemy vessel, and according to Dax: "No matter how many the Jem'Hadar destroy, there always be more."

In discussions of replicators these things eventually come up. As I understand replicators they won't work and can't exist. Not accord to the shows technical advisers, or the tech manuals, neither of which are canon, which the self-replicating mine are.

It is one meter across, each mine contain within that size constraint; sensors, a cloaking device (against the Treaty of Algeron), positioning thrusters, a power source, a powerful explosive of some kind ... oh yes, and a replicator capable of creating multiple other one meter sized mines of the same design, each of these new mines also equipped with a replicator.

Well that all makes perfect sense (hate those little fukkers).

When I saw Sisko's restaurant in Home Front I had the same reaction everyone else probably did; "Are they doing this for free?"

Actually, when I first saw Joseph Sisko's restaurant what I saw was a privately own and operated restaurant, without any delusion on Joseph's part of who really possessed it, he did.

The same with the Picard vineyard, owned outright by Robert and Marie, and operated as a profitable business.

I worked last year as a favor for a friend as a bartender, basically ran the place, the work was interesting and I had fun, but I never considered the place "mine." Around the same time my Uncle paid off the loan on his commercial fishing boat, he considers that boat to be "his."

DS9 had a replimat, which if it's what I think it was, was place where replicators dispensed free food.

But again, just because no physical currency is changing hands hands doesn't equate to no payment, while the station is administered by Starfleet, the station itself is clearly established as being Bajorian territory. The Bajorians do have a currency based system, their money is called the Lita.

Likely this is what you'd be using to obtain food from the replimat on DS9.

I don't think they're forcing people to work for the privileged of using a replicator.

A privilege you would pay for, regardless if you worked for the payment medium or not.

Privilege: A special advantage or benefit not enjoyed by all

 

[Myasishchev]

Yes, God, the self-replicating mines were frustrating.

What's really hateful is that it wasn't narratively necessary. Just cloaking them would be enough, really, and the effort could be finding a way to pierce the cloak, instead of fighting a battle against a magic machine that could violate thermodynamics.

Not, I suppose, that cloaks are particularly better science, but at least they don't break conservation. -_-

 

[Nightdiamond]

Once the idea became cannon it was official-replicators themselves can be replicated.

That means even replicators can be distributed to many people.

Even the energy requirement problem is solved -the replicators were replicated with the energy to create more mines -and replicators.

So Cardassia, the Bajorans, Tasha's home world etc- it's hard top understand their struggle-the need to conquer to get moire resources.

It's as if Trek has to create artificial scarcity in order to make the storyline more exciting or easier to relate to.

 

[T'Girl]

Once the idea became cannon it was official-replicators themselves can be replicated.

Not quite, canon is simply everything that has ever appeared on screen in any form, it is commonly confused with continuity. What we have here is a continuity problem. It like Picard's no money statement verses numerous examples of money usage through out all the Trek series, the two don't gibe. The self-replicating mine contradicts multiple example of replicator limitations, high power requirements, raw material requirements and certain items which just can't be produced.

The self-replicating mine in no way supersedes any other canon references, it just confuses the issue. Since I personally can't figure out how it supposed to work, My solution is that it doesn't, self-replicate that is. All other features of the mine are as stated, but Rom's original idea of a mine that can self reproduce was unworkable and was left out of the production model.

We saw in Sacrifice of Angels that the Dominion were going to send many thousand of ships through the wormhole all at once, with twenty or thirty mines attacking each ship, there wouldn't have been time for the remaining mines to leisurely replicate the replacement mines, the replication process would have had to be incredible fast, the thousands of replacement mines appearing literally within moments.

Other wise the Dominion force would simple sacrifice the leading ships, allowing the bulk of the invasion force to enter the Alpha Quadrant unopposed.

The supposed self-replicating feature certainly didn't prevent the Cardassians from destroying all the mines. As the mines on one end of the field were detonated, the mines on the far end of the field were not replicating as fast as they could, or at all.

The self-replicating feature did not work.

That means even replicators can be distributed to many people.

Except that they weren't, again the Federation gave Bajor two big replicators in the first episodes, years later there was no indication that the machines had become common place upon Bajor.

 

[Nightdiamond]

That means even replicators can be distributed to many people.

Except that they weren't, again the Federation gave Bajor two big replicators in the first episodes, years later there was no indication that the machines had become common place upon Bajor.

That's because they used the artificial scarcity problem- otherwise the problems might be solved too easily and quickly with replicators.

Its supposed to communicate the urgency and the need, but as long as you have replicators it doesn't always seem to make sense.

From what I've seen, replicators can be as small as a stove, and once you have a replicator that can make another replicator-already functioning with the energy to make things, you got perpetual energy and an endless supply of resources.

Add a transporter and you can build a house (possibly anywhere) a lot more easier and faster.

The no money thing is both fascinating and weird.

Jake sold a "book" but didn't have anything to buy the baseball card with- you're not getting compensated (on earth) except for the sense of achievement.

The whole process is almost amusing unless we see a detailed explanation of what actually goes on..


"I'll have a 2 foot main lobster with Fillet Mignon and your finest vintage red wine."

"Ok, Here you go"
"Ok, great dinner, see you next time, bye" (walks out just like that)


"I'll have a 2 foot main lobster with Fillet Mignon and your finest vintage red wine."

"That'll be 640 credits please"
I'm a human I don't have any money"
What no credits ? Get out of here!"

"I'll have a 2 foot main lobster with Fillet Mignon and your finest vintage red wine."

"At once Madam"
"Great Dinner! Here's your pretend money in the form of credits"
"Thank you come again" (Pretends to deposit the credits like a kid playing with a cash register )


it's kind of fun to figure out how it works...

 

[Arpy]

The mines self-replicate because if you destroy one, its neighbor will replace it, not it its destroyed self.

The moneyless economy works because they've found a better way to motivate and account for people to be productive. We only created money practically yesterday in the lifetime of the species. Barter not too long before that. Yet humans have been around for ages, animals before us, and microbes before them. All well motivated to work and grow. It's a testament to money's usefulness and people's complacency that we have such a tough time imagining a future without moolah.

Oh and greed is a modern day mythical figure like Zeus...or a natural theory like the Four Humors were to earlier peoples. Some people believe in or practice it more than others but fundamentally people don't work because they're greedy. It's not about the money for Steve Jobs. Or James Kirk.

 

[Infern0]

on a practical level it wouldnt work.

IRL 90% of the federation would be benefit scroungers and nothing would get done