How was the Federation victory legal?

[Solarbaby]

So the female changeling surrendered when Odo passed on the cure for the lethal disease Section31 infected the Founders with.

But surely the female changeling would have known from Odo that Section31 created the disease. Even if the female changeling was willing to overlook this- which seems absurd- the fact the Federation stood by and willingly let Section31 do this is immoral and breaks their own war rules. To use biological warfare is wrong. We have heard many times throughout Trek about how the use of biogenics is outlawed. Plus it was Section31's intention to commit genocide and wipe out the entire species. Another no no.

I find it hard to believe that given this information the Founders have that they would surrender- or last least keep to this surrender once they have licked their wounds. It seems the end of the war was wrapped up a little cosy. What if the information of Section31's actions was leaked to the public. And then to the Federations allies and enemies. It would be too massive to comprehend their anger at the Federation.

It would call for enquiries upon enquiries into how Section31 was allowed to exist and call to blame those who turned a blind eye in SF HQ. I know that everyone would be glad the war was over and maybe - with a big gulp of suspension of disbelief- they could all go back to normal. But the Federation committed genocide and bio warfare. Surely the Founders and even the Romulans would be pissed off that the squeaky clean Federation that ALWAYS plays by the rules had been caught red handed in such an atrocity.

How do you feel about the surrender?

 

[Jono]

The Federation would stand by that they never used biological warfare and it was an action of a few rogue extremists. The Council's decision not to share the cure when they had it might raise a few eyebrows as we never got the impression that they even planned to use it to try and force the Dominion to surrender. Of course at the time the Federation wasn't in a strong position given the Breen weapon had 2/3 of the allied fleet holding off. The Federation had a strong card in its hand and it might not have been tasteful, but they needed to play it at the right time and just giving it away for no gain wouldn't have done any good at all.

The Founders already "know" that solids want to wipe them out, so they would just feel reaffirmed in their views. You would think that Odo would struggle to get around this, but the fact that the Federation kept its side of the bargain and let Odo cure the Great Link might counter that...though I wouldn't hold my breath.

I doubt the Klingons, Cards, Roms would care at all and think that finally someone in the Federation showed some common sense when dealing with powerful opponents.

 

[Timo]

We have no idea what the conditions of the peace or cease-fire were. Nothing indicated that the Dominion would have left the Alpha Quadrant, and indeed nothing indicated that the wormhole would ever be open to traffic again after Odo's delivery and Kira's return, effectively leaving the Founders, the Vorta and the short-lived Jem'Hadar stranded anyway.

Whatever the terms of the peace, though, the Dominion forces on Alpha are screwed. They can restart a war, but they will lose it, as the Alpha powers have now had the chance to deprive them of all key resources. And they can't tell Alpha to give back those resources, as the only credible threat they have hanging over Alpha is that of a devastating invasion some seven decades from now, when the conventionally moving forces from Gamma reach the Federation and its neighbors.

No doubt that second war is coming - the Dominion fleet must be underway, and there is no plausible reason why it should turn back. Clearly, fleets for the Dominion are short-lived things, quickly produced and quickly replaced if the previous one is expended on a mission. We saw as much when the Alpha beachhead forces multiplied themselves into a formidable foe while utterly isolated from Gamma; obviously, the forces back in Gamma will have the same ability to grow and regrow, and the real question isn't what happens to the fleet currently sailing towards Alpha. It's how many other fleets of similar size have been sent after it since.

In the meantime, the single Founder stranded on Alpha (and possible other stranded Founders) would bide their time and not make a noise, as they would be in no hurry to endanger their own, apparently very long lives. Perhaps they got to keep Cardassia? Or perhaps they got a sanctuary world elsewhere? The Federation would of course realize that a retribution fleet would be arriving, so keeping the Founder(s) under surveillance would be the least they ought to do in order to have at least some sort of a bargaining position.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Solarbaby]

Wow these are both great theories. I am liking the different ideas. It would stand to reason the Founder wouldn't reveal the information.

 

[R. Star]

The short version would be "History is written by the victors." I somehow doubt that it'll be public knowledge that the Federation, behind the scenes or not, tried to genocide the Founders.

 

[Christopher]

Since Section 31 is a rogue organization with no legal sanction, and since it was Starfleet personnel working under the legitimate authority of the Federation who found the cure for the disease, I don't think it can be validly said that the Federation acted illegally. If the Founders shared Odo's knowledge, they'd know of his respect and gratitude for the "solids" who chose to save the Founders even though they were enemies.

Also, it's not like the Dominion surrendered in exchange for getting the cure, not like "You'd better surrender if you want us to save you." Odo gave the cure to the Female Shapeshifter freely before she promised anything in return. And then she agreed to end the war in exchange for Odo returning home and saving the rest of the Founders.

So really, the Federation didn't win the war. Odo did. The Founders surrendered to him, in response to his actions. Although of course he had help from the Federation personnel (Bashir and O'Brien) who discovered the cure.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

The Federation would have won the war in the following hours, but it would have cost the alliance a few limbs, IIRC. Ross basically says the Dominion knows it's over, but their plan is to make the allied forces pay for every inch during the final push. Without Odo "winning the war instead", it would have been so much bloodier than it already was -- and they'd lost almost a third of their forces already, to say nothing of the enemy.

 

[Timo]

The thing is, the Founders hate solids even when those at most fear the Changelings. Their program of subduing the universe has never been indicated to be limited to those Solids who openly challenge or threaten the Changelings. It's quite inconceivable that any sort of a "good" action by Solids would ever get rewarded - it would merely be exploited. OTOH, a "good" action by Odo would only be expected, and for that reason would not warrant a reward, either.

As for legality issues, I can't see why any of the parties involved would be interested. The Dominion has no use for Solid law - even Odo ignores it most of the time. Klingons speak highly of the honoring of treaties and commitments - and then do their best to circumvent and undermine those if they don't work to Klingon advantage. The Ferengi do not believe that law is universal, either. And we saw Cardassian law in action too often to think it would be an issue here.

That basically leaves the Feds and the Romulans. In interstellar terms, the former have no business telling whether acts committed by themselves are legal or not. In internal terms, arguments will no doubt fly back and forth, but it's not as if they could ever lead to anything, as the UFP won't disband Starfleet for playing dirty. The latter will complain, like they always do - but these are the folks who extend the courtesy of Right of Statement to their most devious enemies, so I don't think the complaints will matter much in practice.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[funkylovemonkey]

I don't know how outraged the Dominion can be since they certainly aren't above using Biological and Biogenic Weapons. They very visibly used the Quickening on the Teplan as an example to others, warning what would happen when anyone defied them. That certainly doesn't excuse Section 31 for using the same sort of tactics, but I'm not sure if the Dominion could really righteously condemn the Federation for doing the same thing to them.

That being said, I'm sure the Dominion will continue to be a threat. Even with Odo there. I feel sorry for Odo, honestly, he's in such a terrible position. On one side, he feels betrayed by Section 31 and the Federation's willingness to look the other way. On the other, he was completely horrified by the actions of the female changling when she attempted to wipe out the Cardassians at the end of the war.

Still, the Dominion may not even feel as if they can mount a full scale invasion of the Federation after the mysterious total destruction of their fleet in the Wormhole during the events of "Sacrifice of Angels." There is certainly the implication that the Dominion refuses to try again during the height of the war, even though the Dominion obviously needed reinforcements to win (and any losses taking on DS9 guarding the wormhole most likely would have been worth a victory).

Honestly I can't imagine any other power having trouble with what Section 31 did. I would be surprised if the Romulans didn't have a program in place to try to do the same thing during the war. The bigger problem is how it would affect the Federation if that got out. Would member planets leave in protest? Would it shake the alliance that holds the Federation together? Or would people be so eager to move on after such a terrible war, they would look the other way?

 

[Solarbaby]

Lets just assume that someone else learned the truth. And publicly outed the Federation as the mastermind of the founders disease and had proof. What would be the fallout from that?

Surely with everyone in the quadrant made aware it would throw it into chaos. Or do you still think that people would just be glad there is now peace and turn a blind eye?

Doesn't the moral Federation have a duty to police itself. Surely if it were exposed the council would resign and face charges of corruption.

 

[Timo]

How so? They won the bad guys, using tactics widely approved by the other known civilizations and arguably playing by the most humane rules possible. By only targeting the enemy leadership, they minimized casualties; in the end, the death count was actually zero, as the cure was given.

If it ever came out that somebody had argued against the bioweapon, this somebody would be the one to be crucified: "You were the one wanting more of our sons and daughters to die? You were the one wanting more of their, uh, clones to die? What kind of a monster are you?"

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Solarbaby]

Lets just assume that someone else learned the truth. And publicly outed the Federation as the mastermind of the founders disease and had proof. What would be the fallout from that?

Surely with everyone in the quadrant made aware it would throw it into chaos. Or do you still think that people would just be glad there is now peace and turn a blind eye?

Doesn't the moral Federation have a duty to police itself. Surely if it were exposed the council would resign and face charges of corruption.

I agree with what you are saying. But this doesnt reflect Gene Roddenberry's vision of a utopian Federation. DS9 turned it around. I have discussed this before on different threads that the Federation should not have to resort to using Section 31 to prop it up when their ideals and moral fail to protect it. It is a big ugly lie to project the image of a tolerant peaceful civilisation, when in fact it sinks as low any of it's enemies.

From a storytelling angle this is great conflicted drama, and I personally loved the dark side it went down. However I also really loved the idealism of a future society where the Federation really was a beautiful democracy that worked. I know that it is too good to be true in reality. I feel that if I was Joe public and learned what the Federation did I'd be calling for enquiries. Or for a reform of law to reflect the new public ethos of the Federation council. Right before Section 31 had me go missing.

 

[Timo]

Isn't it pure Roddenberry that instead of sending soldiers to fight, the two sides sit down to talk? Admittedly, with one holding a bioweapon knife on the other's throat, but still...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The_Baroness]

Personally, if I were a Federation higher-up, I'd be more worried about how the Romulans would react if it came out about how we managed to get them to join the war.

 

[Solarbaby]

Personally, if I were a Federation higher-up, I'd be more worried about how the Romulans would react if it came out about how we managed to get them to join the war.

No one higher than Sisko knows what he did do they?

Edit** I just read the synopsis of ITPM to refresh my memory and Sisko did contact Starfleet who gave the plan their blessing. I would assume they needed permission from the Federation council since it was Starfleet and not Section31 who sanctioned the trickery into war.

 

[R. Star]

Personally, if I were a Federation higher-up, I'd be more worried about how the Romulans would react if it came out about how we managed to get them to join the war.

No one higher than Sisko knows what he did do they?

Edit** I just read the synopsis of ITPM to refresh my memory and Sisko did contact Starfleet who gave the plan their blessing. I would assume they needed permission from the Federation council since it was Starfleet and not Section31 who sanctioned the trickery into war.

The Federation did sanction the original trick the Romulans into the war scheme. Though Garak's tangent of the plan likely stayed between him and Sisko.

Honestly any other intelligence agency would be trying to arrange an accident for Garak after the war.

 

[Christopher]

Lets just assume that someone else learned the truth. And publicly outed the Federation as the mastermind of the founders disease and had proof. What would be the fallout from that?

Again: the Federation was not the mastermind of the disease. Section 31, a criminal organization operating within Starfleet and answering to no one but themselves, created the disease. Bashir and O'Brien, Starfleet personnel answering to the legal, rightful authority of the Federation, found the cure for the disease.

So as long as the Federation and Starfleet rooted out the Section 31 conspiracy and brought its perpetrators to justice -- as well as punishing those Starfleet officers who looked the other way, or at least forcing them into retirement -- I don't think they'd be blamed for its actions.

 

[Timo]

Honestly any other intelligence agency would be trying to arrange an accident for Garak after the war.

...So we can expect him to blow up his own shop again in the near future?

Examples of wartime deviousness have very seldom shaken any important structures once the war is over. Spy networks and influential traitors are such regular news that they don't cause moral outrage as such. The main impact of previously unthinkable weapons being used usually comes when they are used, during the war, and the aftermath is much softened by the fact that it already happened. I can't think of a single example in Earth history where a "dirty" victory would have been challenged in the following time of peace. Things like Agent Orange in Vietnam or death squads in Algeria are not international points of contest, merely universal grassroots concerns that tend to be dismissed with "You really expected there to be any good guys involved in that war?".

So as long as the Federation and Starfleet rooted out the Section 31 conspiracy and brought its perpetrators to justice -- as well as punishing those Starfleet officers who looked the other way, or at least forcing them into retirement -- I don't think they'd be blamed for its actions.

Kirk got blamed for the actions of assassins in his crew. By that precedent, Klingons would definitely blame the Federation Council for the actions of S31, assuming they even believed such an organization existed.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Solarbaby]

Again: the Federation was not the mastermind of the disease. Section 31, a criminal organization operating within Starfleet and answering to no one but themselves, created the disease. Bashir and O'Brien, Starfleet personnel answering to the legal, rightful authority of the Federation, found the cure for the disease.

So as long as the Federation and Starfleet rooted out the Section 31 conspiracy and brought its perpetrators to justice -- as well as punishing those Starfleet officers who looked the other way, or at least forcing them into retirement -- I don't think they'd be blamed for its actions.

I agree. I'm kind of playing devil's advocate and taking this to the extreme for some fan fiction I'm developing.

Ultimately I believe the federation is responsible. Taken from wikipedia

"Section 31 exists outside Starfleet Intelligence's influence and deals with threats to Earth's and, later, the Federation's security.[2] Its operating authority stems from a provision of the Starfleet charter—Article 14, Section 31, from which its name is derived—that makes allowances for "bending the rules" during times of extraordinary threats."

The Starfleet charter called for the need for these measures be taken in times of extreme need. This is understandable. But it so loosely written from what we have seen that it doesn't say to what extent these are allowed. Total abandonment of law? If the Section 31 organisation was there from the beginning and remained clandestine all this time, it means that Starfleet knew of it all the while and never acknowledged its existence. Bashir can hardly be the first person to complain to Starfleet about them and their recruitment procedures. Section 31 may claim to be a rogue party not associated with Starfleet, but it is inherently from the very way it is formed. Some big wigs at HQ are turning blind eyes daily to allow resources to be used by Section 31

Of course we know this as viewers but the other residents of the Alpha quadrant don't. If it were to get out then the Federation would have a really hard time justifying itself whilst preaching its utopian values. Maybe this is partly why they created the Prime Directive and deem not to judge other civilisations. Look too deeply into the Federations cracks and massive flaws can be discovered.

 

[Timo]

If it were to get out then the Federation would have a really hard time justifying itself whilst preaching its utopian values.

Again, how so? It's not as if anybody believes the preaching in the first place. If the UFP actions were in conflict with the UFP ideals, the neighboring cultures would simply be impressed by a rare display of honesty, perhaps a step in the road to recovery from that pitiful state of delusion.

Timo Saloniemi