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How to define Science Fiction

Well, sure. Scientists are constantly debating where certain species fall in the taxonomical chart. That doesn't mean that it's useless or shouldn't exist.

Biological classification is far from useless, but it is descriptive rather than prescriptive. Species evolve and become extinct.

I don't believe that literary classification is useless either, but I believe I've outlined an argument for why practical prescriptive literary categories cannot have concise definitions. The fact that categorization becomes accurate only once it has a descriptive format really suggests that the act of categorizing literature is a descriptive process, since one cannot envision all examples of literature a priori.

Great works of literature often influence the territory embraced by particular genres, in particular, to include themselves.
 
Here, in essence, is the flaw in your entire argument, RJDiogenes:

"It just has to be what the story is about rather than props."

This is what you say separates science fiction from not-science fiction. But why do you say that? Where did you get this completely indefensible, historically inaccurate, undescriptive, and blatantly disprovable notion from, that science fiction is only science fiction if the science or the technology is "what the story is about rather than just props?"

There isn't a single professional writer or critic in the field over the last 50 years that I'm aware of that uses such a distinction to define science fiction. You just made that up. There's no reason for it.
 
Why is it important to define what science fiction is in the first place? Can't a person just like what we want to like without having to worry about such things? Can't we have our own personal definitions?

I've never really read a hard sci-fi novel, but it also seems to me that it wouldn't really be sci-fi because a large part of what makes space sci-fi is the application of futuristic technology. Real world technology isn't really futuristic if it's existing technology or technology that is in development. So i don't really understand hard sci-fi myself.

To me, sci-fi is space opera with space ships, or superheroes.

The other problem I see is that in today's sci-fi, much of it is mixed, such as the movies Wild Wild West, Star Wars, and Alien. Even Star trek can mix it up a bit and include elements of horror, even if used lightly.
 
The other problem I see is that in today's sci-fi, much of it is mixed, such as the movies Wild Wild West, Star Wars, and Alien. Even Star trek can mix it up a bit and include elements of horror, even if used lightly.

It's not just today's sci-fi. It's always been that way. Look at Frankenstein, or The Island of Dr. Moreau, or Metropolis, or The Colour Out of Space or The Thing from Another World or Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Scifi and horror have been overlapping since day one--as proven by the fact that the "mad scientist" is both a scifi and horror icon.

And what are robots but a modern-day variant on the Golem?
 
Godzilla was created by the radioactivity of a nuclear melt down and was recently spotted off the coast of Nova Scotia and headed for Manhattan Island. Of course, he has relatives there. The science of the Terminator and Jurassic Park come to mind even naming the scientist Dysen to thoroughly confuse people with the real scientist's name. It's a simulation! It's a simulation! - In case you're wondering ,from 'War games'. i remember during the O.J. Simpson trial, Marcia Clarke said in defence of DNA evidence, well if we can make tiny baby didnosaurs come alive we can certainly prove O.J. is guilty of killing those two people. So there's the danger right there. Monkey see monkey do.
 
Yes but my veiled point was
that the Overlords are a science fiction take on demons in appearance and angels in action. Demons are normally something you'd expect in fantasy, after all.
Sure, but that's just a plot MacGuffin-- an excuse to keep them hidden, to cultivate an atmosphere of mystery. Plus, Clarke always likes to draw a line through history to the present and the future; his historical flashbacks in Fountains Of Paradise don't make the book a historical novel.

I think there's a distinction between, say, Van Helsing in Dracula and Robert Neville in I Am Legend. Van Helsing is a man of science for whom reason has led him to believe in the existence of the occult, in a fantasy underworld, while Robert Neville's research grounds vampires in a scientific theory.
Hmm. Different situations, I think. If the occult existed, a man of reason would have to accept and adapt. In I Am Legend, Matheson is not really grounding vampires in scientific theory-- for example, his story doesn't feature a vampiric Dracula and a plausible explanation for him-- he's just created an engineered disease that mimics some of the aspects of vampires and zombies. That's not really too far fetched.

But yes, I don't think anyone believes in werewolves. But neither does anyone believe in ancient alien astronauts building the Pyramids, although aliens tinkering in humanity's past is a pretty common idea (2001, for example).
Well, this idea can go either way. Technically, it is SF, because it's an extrapolated scientific explanation for something. It's unlikely in the extreme, of course, and explains things that are already explained, but it's not impossible and it's grounded in real science.

Not really. They're both robots. Fictional robots who are scientifically run and have different purposes. I mean, a robot with a few thousand languages for use as a translator does sound awfully SF to me...
But my point is that the Calvin stories are about the robots and their effect on people. The robots becoming more human, Calvin becoming more robotic, that sort of thing. In SW, the robots are just stage dressing (well, they are characters, too, but they exist to help paint the picture).

Biological classification is far from useless, but it is descriptive rather than prescriptive. Species evolve and become extinct.
But I never said that genre definitions should be prescriptive; I've said many times that I favor my definition because it's descriptive.

Here, in essence, is the flaw in your entire argument, RJDiogenes:

"It just has to be what the story is about rather than props."

This is what you say separates science fiction from not-science fiction. But why do you say that? Where did you get this completely indefensible, historically inaccurate, undescriptive, and blatantly disprovable notion from, that science fiction is only science fiction if the science or the technology is "what the story is about rather than just props?"

There isn't a single professional writer or critic in the field over the last 50 years that I'm aware of that uses such a distinction to define science fiction. You just made that up. There's no reason for it.
At this point I can't remember if I thought of it first or read it first, but there are many, many professionals who agree with me. I listed several earlier in the thread. Legendary editor Hugo Gernsback, current Analog editor Stanley Schmidt, Isaac Asimov and Theodore Sturgeon are obvious examples. There are many more. Coincidentally, when I went upstairs after posting this morning, I caught the end of an episode of Prophets Of Science Fiction; the woman being interviewed used my definition to demonstrate that Frankenstein is Science Fiction. As far as I know, my definition matches the original one, from the time the term Science Fiction replaced Scientifiction. As for why I favor that definition, it's the same reason that I think a Mystery should have a mystery; the label should be consistent with what it's describing.
 
I suppose a lot depends on whether you place the emphasis on the science or the fiction. Some people are more concerned with the science and the plausibility thereof, while some of us tend to regard robots and spaceships as literary devices, no different than deals with the devil or love potions.

From a literary point of view, a shape-changing alien and a shape-changing demon are basically the same gimmick and serve the same narrative function, so I'm not inclined to split hairs about whether a story is sf or fantasy or whatever . . . except for marketing purposes.
 
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Sure, but that's just a plot MacGuffin-- an excuse to keep them hidden, to cultivate an atmosphere of mystery.

*rubs face* Ignoring MacGuffin for brevity here (because no, that is not what MacGuffin means) what Clarke does is provide a scientific explanation of a traditional element of fantasy.

Hmm. Different situations, I think. If the occult existed, a man of reason would have to accept and adapt. In I Am Legend, Matheson is not really grounding vampires in scientific theory-- for example, his story doesn't feature a vampiric Dracula and a plausible explanation for him-- he's just created an engineered disease that mimics some of the aspects of vampires and zombies. That's not really too far fetched.

Actually, what Matheson exactly does is create science fiction vampires. Related to the above, in the novel's world the virus is the origin of the vampire myth. His vampires have various aversions - to garlic, religious symbols, walking around in daytime, and do actually consume, y'know...

That's pretty much how a science fiction take on a fantasy concept usually works. You take it, you rationalize it and explain it in a scientific or pseudoscientific context.


But my point is that the Calvin stories are about the robots and their effect on people. The robots becoming more human, Calvin becoming more robotic, that sort of thing. In SW, the robots are just stage dressing (well, they are characters, too, but they exist to help paint the picture).
The robots in Star Wars have specific limitations on being people, that are both legal and practical, but also show very strong signs of behaving in sapient and empathic fashion. The first film in particular is anchored on them.

At this point I can't remember if I thought of it first or read it first, but there are many, many professionals who agree with me.

Not quite.

Many professionals agree with you that the genre should be so divided. Not so many actually stick to these terms when casually referring to things, which is, again, the importance between definitions and uses. Isaac Asimov was famously dismissive of 'eye sci-fi', but I would note the last two syllables of that phrase.

Speaking of eye sci-fi, and for the reader's consideration, here is the list Arthur C. Clarke made of what he considered the best science fiction films so far made, in the early 1980s:

1. Metropolis (1927)
2. Things to Come (1936)
3. Frankenstein (1931)
4. King Kong (1933)
5. Forbidden Planet (1956)
6. The Thing from Another World (1951)
7. The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951)
8. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968)
9. Star Wars (1977)
10. Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1980)
11. Alien (1979)
12. Blade Runner (1982)

...with both Return of the Jedi and Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan as serious contenders in his eyes.
 
Your definition does indeed match one similar to some of the original ones. And you're right, Frankenstein is a science fiction book that happens to fit the definition (Aldiss argues it is science fiction, but for reasons different than yours - Aldiss argues that science fiction must have its source in the gothic). But that's why I specified "in the last 50 years." A definition attributed to a genre 60 years ago, a genre that has changed as much as it has in those 60 years, is utterly obsolete.

Hugo Gernsback is now regularly considered, by many critics, one of the worst things to ever happen to the genre. Isaac Asimov, for his part, famously changed his mind about that, especially around the time he was asked to take part in Harlan Ellison's New Wave anthology. He acknowledged that science fiction was changing, that people like Ursula K. Leguin, Harlan Ellison, and Robert Silverberg were the new voices of science fiction, and that he was, more or less, the unchangeable old fart in the room. Granted, a lot of that may have been typical Asimovian self-deprecation, but my point is that even Asimov admitted that his ideas of what constitute science fiction were going out of style.

My point is, a 50 year-old definition is useless. Hell, even a 15 year-old definition is useless. It must change and adapt itself almost constantly in order to be, as you say, descriptive.
 
Right but easier doesn't mean better. How societies work can be interesting and simply saying 'they suck' - while it can create a wonderfully paranoid world like 1984 - isn't inherently better.

Never said it was. I only said I can understand why many writers use the convention. Neither is an optimistic view of the future inherently better in any way. As always with fiction, it comes down to the particular treatment when determinig quality. One person can treat a dystopia or a utopia and come up a masterpiece, while another writer may take on a similar concept and produce nothing but crap.

Worked for the Dune series though, didn't it.

It was not the only option for the Dune series, which seems to be how you frame it. And as good as God Emperor was, for me it's pretty much where the series stopped being any good.

I'm not sure what "not the only option for the Dune series" means since it is, in fact, the way the Dune series went. Could Herbert have written something else? Of course he could have - but he didn't. And I only brought it up as an illustration of the idea that a society gone to hell gives much opportunity for a writer to create a hero, while a society in paradise gives much opportunity for a writer to create a villain. And really I should have put villian in quotes - how many tales are there about a seemingly perfect society against which the protagonist rebels?
 
Biological classification is far from useless, but it is descriptive rather than prescriptive. Species evolve and become extinct.
But I never said that genre definitions should be prescriptive; I've said many times that I favor my definition because it's descriptive.

As far as I can tell, descriptively defined literary categories must change over time, as new example works come along and are posited as belonging to them. You cannot anticipate the precise boundary of a descriptively defined literary category ahead of time, without specific a priori knowledge of all possible works of literature.

Upthread, it sounded to me like you wanted the definition of science fiction to have an essentially static quality.
The thing itself doesn't change if you describe it accurately.
As far as I can tell, this would require the category of science fiction to be prescriptively defined. :shrug:
 
I suppose a lot depends on whether you place the emphasis on the science or the fiction. Some people are more concerned with the science and the plausibility thereof, while some of us tend to regard robots and spaceships as literary devices, no different than deals with the devil or love potions.
Well, as I think I said earlier, I think the emphasis should be equal. And robots and spaceships are fine as literary devices, but if they don't define the story, they don't define the genre. Is Twelve Angry Men a courtroom drama or a mystery? No mystery is proposed, but the guy solves it anyway-- however that's not what the story is about. It's about the character drama.

From a literary point of view, a shape-changing alien and a shape-changing demon are basically the same gimmick and serve the same narrative function, so I'm not inclined to split hairs about whether a story is sf or fantasy or whatever . . . except for marketing purposes.
If a shape-changing alien is used as the same gimmick, then it's probably fantasy. Could be SF, though. It would depend on the specific story.

*rubs face* Ignoring MacGuffin for brevity here (because no, that is not what MacGuffin means) what Clarke does is provide a scientific explanation of a traditional element of fantasy.
Okay, it's not a MacGuffin-- now you care about definitions. :rommie: Yeah, he does that, but it's just a sidebar. In any case, I never said it couldn't be done.

Actually, what Matheson exactly does is create science fiction vampires. Related to the above, in the novel's world the virus is the origin of the vampire myth. His vampires have various aversions - to garlic, religious symbols, walking around in daytime, and do actually consume, y'know...
I don't remember the garlic and religious symbols. But, okay, that's fine. But, unless I'm misremembering even worse than that, the actual story is a cautionary tale about biological warfare.

That's pretty much how a science fiction take on a fantasy concept usually works. You take it, you rationalize it and explain it in a scientific or pseudoscientific context.
Sure, that's what I was saying about verisimilitude. But it's the actual story that determines whether it's SF.

The robots in Star Wars have specific limitations on being people, that are both legal and practical, but also show very strong signs of behaving in sapient and empathic fashion. The first film in particular is anchored on them.
But, again, the story isn't about that. The story is an adventure. Take the robots out and it makes no difference.

Many professionals agree with you that the genre should be so divided. Not so many actually stick to these terms when casually referring to things, which is, again, the importance between definitions and uses. Isaac Asimov was famously dismissive of 'eye sci-fi', but I would note the last two syllables of that phrase.
Well, sure, I'm fairly casual about it, too, just like I am with the word MacGuffin. :rommie: In conversation, I can be casual about the distinction between meteors, meteorites and meteoroids. And I'm completely slapdash about the use of "affect" versus "effect." But the definitions are still there.

Speaking of eye sci-fi, and for the reader's consideration, here is the list Arthur C. Clarke made of what he considered the best science fiction films so far made, in the early 1980s:
That's why I didn't use him as an example. He's my favorite writer, but we don't necessarily agree on everything. :D

Hugo Gernsback is now regularly considered, by many critics, one of the worst things to ever happen to the genre. Isaac Asimov, for his part, famously changed his mind about that, especially around the time he was asked to take part in Harlan Ellison's New Wave anthology. He acknowledged that science fiction was changing, that people like Ursula K. Leguin, Harlan Ellison, and Robert Silverberg were the new voices of science fiction, and that he was, more or less, the unchangeable old fart in the room. Granted, a lot of that may have been typical Asimovian self-deprecation, but my point is that even Asimov admitted that his ideas of what constitute science fiction were going out of style.
I don't think that's exactly the case. When Ellison asked him to participate in Dangerous Visions, he declined saying that he was too old-fashioned to write anything appropriately subversive (Ellison disagreed, citing "The Dead Past"). But it had nothing to do with a changing definition of SF (although much of the DV stories could be better described with the Speculative Fiction label).

My point is, a 50 year-old definition is useless. Hell, even a 15 year-old definition is useless. It must change and adapt itself almost constantly in order to be, as you say, descriptive.
I don't think it is. I just think that over the years many things have been labeled Science Fiction that aren't, and that it's come to be accepted. It's like people calling spiders insects-- it's commonly accepted and you'll seldom be corrected, but common usage doesn't change the definition.

As far as I can tell, descriptively defined literary categories must change over time, as new example works come along and are posited as belonging to them. You cannot anticipate the precise boundary of a descriptively defined literary category ahead of time, without specific a priori knowledge of all possible works of literature.
The boundaries of the content can certainly evolve over time; the example of the New Wave-type of subversive SF in the 60s demonstrates that. But the genre itself can't become something it's not. Kung Fu is a classic Western that was unique for its inclusion of Eastern mysticism and martial arts. That expanded the boundaries of the Western genre, but does that mean Enter The Dragon is now a Western?

Upthread, it sounded to me like you wanted the definition of science fiction to have an essentially static quality.
The thing itself doesn't change if you describe it accurately.
As far as I can tell, this would require the category of science fiction to be prescriptively defined. :shrug:
What I actually meant by that is that specific things don't change. Star Wars is still Star Wars whether you call it Science Fiction or Space Opera.
 
I don't remember the garlic and religious symbols. But, okay, that's fine. But, unless I'm misremembering even worse than that, the actual story is a cautionary tale about biological warfare.

I read it about a month ago. There's no biological warfare that I remember, the vampire virus is a natural thing.
So, for example, reactions to religious symbols and to mirrors are psychosomatic - there's enough mind left in the vampires to both be horrified that they are unclean in the standards of theire religions or to be horrified by being shown what they look like. The garlic, however, is just naturally resistant to the properties of the virus. And so on.

That's why I didn't use him as an example. He's my favorite writer, but we don't necessarily agree on everything. :D
Ah, but the interesting thing is that were I to discuss Arthur C. Clarke definitions, he did draw a line between science fiction (what he did) and science fantasy (and he cited Star Wars as an example here). Definitions versus use and all that rot. I do like the term 'science fantasy', though, and it's a good shorthand for how a lot of sci-fi is measurably uninterested in the concerns of hard sci-fi.
 
It was said above that in literary terms it didn't make any difference whether the impossibility was caused by scientific means (good science, bad science, wildly fictional "science, is irrelevant) or by magic. This is partly in error. According to the genre of any given story, it may not make any difference to the plot. But, a well written rationalization may provide a logical development to resolve the plot that is more satisfying than a fantasy one, which almost always smacks of arbitrariness. Also, plausibility, earned by using SF instead of fantasy, can make willing suspension of disbelief easier. There was a time when people rejected fairy tales and Monk Lewis was cutting edge for just putting magic in his horror!

Of course, the claim that science fiction is just another set of magic words that invokes an impossibility is entirely in error. Worse, it is semiliterate. You have to be pretty much completely style deaf to ignore the different tonalities of SF and fantasy impossibilities. Demons taking different forms and genetically engineered shapeshifters taking forms may be functionally the same impossibility but they just don't have the same style! Further, if you're writing SF, the creativity of the rationalization is itself a hallmark of good style.

The thing about SF is, why write pseudorealistically about impossible things? Impossible things of course includes everything set in the future. The simple answer of course if that the future will be different. We know this, because the past was different! The notion that SF is in some sense about real possibilities acknowledges these rather simple facts.

In practice of course most SF, like most stories and dramas, isn't about anything, it's just vicarious daydreaming. The thing about vicarious daydreams of course, is that they really are simple matters of taste and completely unamenable to discussion. Which is why a descriptive definition of SF merely notes that it is science fiction when an impossibility is rationalized as somehow truly possible. It's true that this leads to finding SF in James Bond movies or technothrillers, near future settings, etc. but there it is. It's a kind of mode of writing, no more a genre than realism is, so it can and has been used in multiple genres. SF cannot be defined as a genre any more than realism because it is not a genre.

The prescriptive definitions of SF claim that considerations of the future may not be realistic, i.e., faithful to real life now, but that it is still worthy. Objections that definitions of SF are merely expressions of malice fail on two counts, overlooking the difficulties in believing in the mindreading powers of the posters who fell into this trap. The first is that this is a fine expression of the genetic fallacy. So what if they were motivated by snobbery? That doesn't answer the objection! This is a stupid, stupid rebuttal!:guffaw:

The seond failure, of course, lies in the tendentious refusal to consider alternative interpretations. Inevitably this mendacity is rationalized as superior sensitivity to the true difficulties. :guffaw:(Again! This is an amusing thread.!) That of course, is that people like to invoke the irrationality of magic because they dislike rationality, because they don't believe in a causal universe, because they believe in an eternal Human Condition, because they think perception is reality, that your will makes your condition and all sorts of stupid, nasty, bigoted ideas of that ilk.

For example, the notion that a Foundation written as a wizard trying to restore the Roman Empire after its fall would be the same is perfectly absurd, even in storytelling terms. Why should we care about Wizard Harius Seldonius' efforts to restore the emperor? On the other hand, we do care about whether social science might actually advance to the point of making some sort of predictions, at least in a social engineering sort of way. The only reason for even imagining such nonsense as magic versus the Fall of Rome=Foundation is because of a visceral rejection of the very possibility.

Vonnegut couldn't really get away with claiming he was put into a category and simultaneously claiming the category existed because SF writers and fans got together for social reasons. This only seems reasonable if you don't understand what he's saying.

Pulp magazines reprinted Wells and Verne and even I think Hawthorne and Poe, very heavily. Wells et al. are the progenitors of SF. Mary Shelley too. The emergence of the understanding that there is a lawful universe and that some things are impossible, not even by magic, is prerequisite for the emergence of the SF technique. Swift and de Bergerac might have had an inkling. But that guy Wilkins and his wingety people, no, I don't think so.

Scifi rationalizations of vampires and werewolves (besides Jack Williamson, James Blish did one,) are plainly SF. They also tend to be kind of dull and foolish. Steampunk tends to be dull and foolish, too, especially the ones that Take Themselves (oh,so) Seriously.

Frankly, the imeptus for steampunk seems to be very much about reviving daydreams of the Empire on Which the Sun Never Sets and the White Man's Burden. The problems with steampunk artistically can be exemplified I think by a cursory comparison of Gore Vidal's Julian and Robert Charles Wilson's Julian Comstock.

Lastly, technically speaking historical fiction and science fiction are identical. There is the same fundamental divide between literal adherence to known fact and fictionalization/dramatization. And both geth the same disdain for the implicit notion that things will not stay the same forever.
 
It was said above that in literary terms it didn't make any difference whether the impossibility was caused by scientific means (good science, bad science, wildly fictional "science, is irrelevant) or by magic. This is partly in error.

Well the argument is that the quality of the science doesn't matter in identifying the work's genre. By the same token, a historical novel with a fairly loose attention to historical fact is still a historical novel.

There was a time when people rejected fairy tales and Monk Lewis was cutting edge for just putting magic in his horror!

Oh, come now. Horace Walpole's Otranto was well ahead of Matthew Lewis' curve here. It's also fairly conscious of the hostility to fantastical subjects in fiction, amusingly enough: It presents itself as the translation of a superstituous medieval text and has characters come up with ridiculous rationalizations for the bizarre events unfolding around them.

The only reason for even imagining such nonsense as magic versus the Fall of Rome=Foundation is because of a visceral rejection of the very possibility.
Not necessarily. I would also say that you could tell stories about golems that are functionally the same as Isaac Asimov's robot puzzles. This does not mean I do not believe robots can be made. Psychohistory serves the same narrative purpose as prophecy does in many fantasy books, regardless of the merits of the scientific idea explaining it.
 
I agree that the quality of the science doesn't make any difference makes any difference to identifying the genre. But I thought the point for others was that the genre doesn't make any difference to the quality of the science. Whereas I think one of the main purposes in distinguishing SF and fantasy is judge when the SF writer, who is implicitly making a deal with us that he or she is going to help us to suspend disbelief by providing some good rationalizations, isn't keeping the deal. Choice of literary technique, like choice of genre, bespeaks intent, which is always relevant to judgment. Indeed, these choices are always more relevant than expressed intent of the author, as authors can be confused or deceptive.

Walpole versus Lewis, obviously I've confused my dates. And didn't Beckford precede both. In any event, it was still bold when Lewis wrote to accept the supernatural. The tendency to prefer the supernatural, or to find it a matter of indifference, very much reflects the culture of the times. Which brings us back to modern literary distaste for an intelligible universe. (Optimistic or pessimistic is not quite the same, and putting it that way diverts from the fundamental issues.)

Golems stories may have some plots borrowed from Asimovian robots, but the funamental theme of the difficulty of codifying simple rules of behavior and having them work well is not in my opinion going to carry over to a fiction written as a fantasy. There are implications for our ideas of law and jurisprudence, for instance, that just aren't there when it's about whether we enjoy seeing the wizard outwit himself, or triumph over folly, or whatever. I think we have the analogue already written in the form of the E. Nesbit/Edward Eager stories about demented logic in magic, also some Lewis Carroll and it's just not the same.

It is true that the narrative function of psychohistory is closely parallel to prophecy. But the thematic function is very different. Would the birth of another wizard strong enough to fight Harius Seldonius, namely Mulius Maximus, really be so strange? Whereas the birth of a mutant, a change in biological human nature, is really quite a different proposition. (The reversal of the Mule's nature is indicative of the profound changes in the themes of the series in its later stages.) There's a sense in which plot is superficial, as important as auto mechanics that move the vehicle. Theme is where the vehicle is going.
 
It was said above that in literary terms it didn't make any difference whether the impossibility was caused by scientific means (good science, bad science, wildly fictional "science, is irrelevant) or by magic. This is partly in error.

Well the argument is that the quality of the science doesn't matter in identifying the work's genre. By the same token, a historical novel with a fairly loose attention to historical fact is still a historical novel.

There was a time when people rejected fairy tales and Monk Lewis was cutting edge for just putting magic in his horror!

Oh, come now. Horace Walpole's Otranto was well ahead of Matthew Lewis' curve here. It's also fairly conscious of the hostility to fantastical subjects in fiction, amusingly enough: It presents itself as the translation of a superstituous medieval text and has characters come up with ridiculous rationalizations for the bizarre events unfolding around them.

The only reason for even imagining such nonsense as magic versus the Fall of Rome=Foundation is because of a visceral rejection of the very possibility.
Not necessarily. I would also say that you could tell stories about golems that are functionally the same as Isaac Asimov's robot puzzles. This does not mean I do not believe robots can be made. Psychohistory serves the same narrative purpose as prophecy does in many fantasy books, regardless of the merits of the scientific idea explaining it.

Although, to be fair, it is true that a fantasy framework for a story is an entirely different style than a science fiction framework for it. Sure, Lord of the Rings and Star Wars are very much the same story, just as Star Trek TOS is often nothing more than a Western in space, but those differences clearly are significant differences. Style is content, if you get my drift. The style of the story is often everything. This is another reason, among many, that RJDiogenes' definition of science fiction is useless, silly, and arbitrary: because it ignores elements of style, which, in generic categorization, is often the deciding factor (style is the reason why, for example, Carrie is probably a horror novel while Dying Inside is probably science fiction - simply because of stylistic approach.)
 
^^^The SF style is pseudrealistic treatment of the impossible. The question, again, is why write a false realism about something when you can't really know what it is like? (The future, an unknowable past, other dimensions, robots, post-nuclear war, etc. are all examples of things that can't be written realistically.) The easy answer, because it might be true, is extrapolation, so that means the extrapolation definition is not arbitrary. And if there is an actual SF genre, this is as plausible candidate as has ever been offered. I still don't agree, as it is still prescriptive. In addition to that fault, there are in fact only a small number of works that truly fill the prescription. I conclude that a descriptive definition is more useful.

Also, there are fantasists who really believe they are writing in a pseudorealistic style. Certainly, they are dark and gritty enough, and occasionally drab and pompous. Richard K. Morgan's The Steel Remains or George R.R. Martin's endless series are good examples, I think. The thing is, that I can't make myself believe in those worlds, because the superficial realism just does not jibe, the world is incoherent. Morgan's hero takes a god as a lover but still acts like an atheist, even when confronted with real supernatural powers! Martin's faux mediaeval society hasn't got the ability to survive a years long winter. Etc. Can't suspend disbelief, can't care.

Carrie is horror written with an SF style, and could have been horrifying even if Carrie had made a pact with the devil. It wouldn't have been the same, because of the different style, but it's both an example where style isn't everything, and where it would be perfectly obtuse to say it doesn't make any difference how it's written.
 
I read it about a month ago. There's no biological warfare that I remember, the vampire virus is a natural thing.
So, for example, reactions to religious symbols and to mirrors are psychosomatic - there's enough mind left in the vampires to both be horrified that they are unclean in the standards of theire religions or to be horrified by being shown what they look like. The garlic, however, is just naturally resistant to the properties of the virus. And so on.
Interesting. I must be thinking of the Vincent Price movie. I have an I am Legend/Hell House omnibus around here somewhere; I'll have to track it down and take a look.

Ah, but the interesting thing is that were I to discuss Arthur C. Clarke definitions, he did draw a line between science fiction (what he did) and science fantasy (and he cited Star Wars as an example here). Definitions versus use and all that rot. I do like the term 'science fantasy', though, and it's a good shorthand for how a lot of sci-fi is measurably uninterested in the concerns of hard sci-fi.
Well, of course there's a difference in casual versus official use. When I was in Midwifery, the staff would throw around words like "boobies" in staff meetings, but the terminology they'd use in the progress notes or Grand Rounds was quite different. :rommie: There's nothing wrong with casual, but it doesn't make the definitions go away. The more terms and the more descriptive definitions, the more information is being communicated. I also like the term "science fantasy," for the same reason you cite: It gives you a better idea of the content.

Although, to be fair, it is true that a fantasy framework for a story is an entirely different style than a science fiction framework for it. Sure, Lord of the Rings and Star Wars are very much the same story, just as Star Trek TOS is often nothing more than a Western in space, but those differences clearly are significant differences. Style is content, if you get my drift. The style of the story is often everything. This is another reason, among many, that RJDiogenes' definition of science fiction is useless, silly, and arbitrary: because it ignores elements of style, which, in generic categorization, is often the deciding factor (style is the reason why, for example, Carrie is probably a horror novel while Dying Inside is probably science fiction - simply because of stylistic approach.)
I wouldn't say style is content, necessarily, but format is. Rather than demonstrating that my definition is silly, you demonstrate why it's correct. The idea that Star Trek was a "Western in space" is exactly why it's Space Opera and not Science Fiction.
 
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