Naked and Afraid: Ceti Alpha V Edition
How The U.S.S. Excalibur Was Destroyed
- Thread starter There Be Whales Here
- Start date
We know Kirk carries stuff that would help Khan: mention is made of emergency shelters in "Devil in the Dark", say.
We never hear Kirk give Khan the slightest choice, though. Only McGivers gets to choose, between court martial (which wouldn't apply to the civilian Khan, and all charges against him were already dropped anyway) and co-exile.
We also never quite learn what Khan's other option (had he ever been offered one) would have been. Execution? Brainwashing? Starfleet does both on occasion. Civilian courts might have their own ideas, too. But Khan wasn't culpable for anything we'd have seen: all his actions against Kirk and the crew had been forgiven and annulled. Kirk isn't passing judgment in the formal sense.
In a different timeline altogether, we learn that Khan was considered a war criminal (or at least another evil guy made this claim, in a situation where he could not be fact-checked). Would Kirk know of that? Would he feel those charges were still valid? Or would he rather see the judges of yore thrown in prison for their crimes against Khan the benevolent tyrant and all-around nice guy Kirk looks up to?
In the end, Kirk maroons Khan simply because of the premise: the world still isn't ready for eighty Napoleons, and probably never will be. Killing the guy isn't a good idea since Kirk sorta admires him and has already dropped the charges. But bringing him to a civilian court won't work, either. So marooning is probably the most humane thing Kirk can come up with in the circumstances.
Who knows? Khan never wanted to rule in Hell. He wanted to rule on Earth. He benefited from Kirk rescuing him when his cryoship started failing; he'd benefit from some poor sap coming to check up on him on Ceti Alpha V, too, as this would give him yet another shot at ruling Earth. I could well see Khan insisting on visits.
Except he never does. And Kirk never promises anything of the sort.
Agreed on that. TOS did fairly little returning to old characters and concepts, but there was some there (Mudd, say, plus multiple attempts at returning specific Klingon characters). It was TNG that ultimately leaned on that crutch, though, bringing back Sarek, Spock, Scotty and finally even Kirk. Bringing back Khan could well have happened, in the universe where bringing back Kirk for "Too Short a Season" happened...
but yes, we got what we got, and it was quite the enjoyable film.
As evidenced by the ratio of TWoK nitpick threads vs. TFF nitpick threads here, despite the ratio of TWoK issues vs. TFF issues!
Timo Saloniemi
^^ The other option. 
"Khan and his people. What a waste to put them in a reorientation center."
And the hearing has the air of a legal formality making official a deal already arranged between Kirk, Khan and Starfleet (I just don't buy Kirk being able to give away a planet on his own).
"Khan and his people. What a waste to put them in a reorientation center."
And the hearing has the air of a legal formality making official a deal already arranged between Kirk, Khan and Starfleet (I just don't buy Kirk being able to give away a planet on his own).
There is no indication that Kirk would have discussed anything with Khan offscreen, and the superman certainly appears surprised when Kirk tells him his chosen fate.
Furthermore, Kirk appears to have kept his choice secret from his own team as well, with McCoy mightily surprised, and with only Spock perhaps in his confidence - although the science officer's deadpan response to the query about Ceti Alpha V could also just be Spock being Spock.
I doubt Starfleet was ever in the loop. Granted that about 90% of the Starfleet people in this episode were Khan fans, but the matter of eighty Napoleons would stand even with a remaining 10% of the Admiralty alarmed, and civilians might not be so enamored by the tyrant.
The way the episode concludes is the perfect setup for the second movie: Terrell might well have glanced over Ceti Alpha V data when on his way to establish the exact parameters of the desert on Ceti Alpha VI for the Genesis test, but any mention of Khan might well have been buried deep by Kirk or by like-minded neo-Augmentists in the higher echelons.
As for "giving away planets", this actually happens a lot in Trek. Class M worlds are two bucks in a dozen, and clearly nobody was interested in Ceti Alpha at the time (the whole idea being that Khan could remain unencountered until this adventure because this area of space had already been visited and found boooooooring). Too bad Kirk didn't figure some other people might be interested in forgotten places, too...
Timo Saloniemi
Furthermore, Kirk appears to have kept his choice secret from his own team as well, with McCoy mightily surprised, and with only Spock perhaps in his confidence - although the science officer's deadpan response to the query about Ceti Alpha V could also just be Spock being Spock.
I doubt Starfleet was ever in the loop. Granted that about 90% of the Starfleet people in this episode were Khan fans, but the matter of eighty Napoleons would stand even with a remaining 10% of the Admiralty alarmed, and civilians might not be so enamored by the tyrant.
The way the episode concludes is the perfect setup for the second movie: Terrell might well have glanced over Ceti Alpha V data when on his way to establish the exact parameters of the desert on Ceti Alpha VI for the Genesis test, but any mention of Khan might well have been buried deep by Kirk or by like-minded neo-Augmentists in the higher echelons.
As for "giving away planets", this actually happens a lot in Trek. Class M worlds are two bucks in a dozen, and clearly nobody was interested in Ceti Alpha at the time (the whole idea being that Khan could remain unencountered until this adventure because this area of space had already been visited and found boooooooring). Too bad Kirk didn't figure some other people might be interested in forgotten places, too...
Timo Saloniemi
We're talking about something with the mass of our solar system (okay, being generous, let's say thrice the mass of our solar system) spread out over the area of our solar system. The density of matter resulting would be considered a good vacuum on Earth.
Exactly. The nebula as portrayed in TWOK is BS.
The whole idea that the Genesis Device was able to explode in a Nebula, and then from that FROM both a Star and a planet at the proper distance to be in the habitable zone - and in a couple of hours/days; when it was stated that they programmed it to be shot at just an existing dead planet, was a REAL stretch of that aspect of the story to begin with.
Yeah. The "Mutara" nebula was just a device to get two starships to fight at point-blank range without immediately killing each other or slugging it out at long-range (even in their considerably damaged state.) I believe it was talked about as the solution to the director wanting a dogfight but they got him a hide-and-seek instead by Joe Jennings in one of the TWOK behind the scenes specials.
DS9 would later do something similar to this in "Starship Down" that made more sense from a science POV, IMHO.
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We have to think this through. The movie doesn't suggest the area of a solar system.
The Battle in the Mutara Nebula takes place within a tiny volume of space: two ships without warp drive are taking only minutes of travel time in there.
And what is this tiny volume? It's the central spot within a broader nebula where a star is about to form. Think about it: if a star is ever to form, anywhere, then there must be an interval, at least a moment in celestial time, when the nebula gets denser and denser in that spot. Otherwise, nothing can happen there. No star would ever form if your near-vacuum math is all that ever happens, throughout eternity.
Then you're talking dueling in the outer layers of a protosun.
The corona of an actual star has a density of roughly 10-16 grams per cubic centimeter -- that's still better than most vacuums on Earth. A "nebula" with the density you're talking about would be a flaming sun with entirely different properties.
A lot about TWOK doesn't make any sense. That's one of the reasons I don't like it. It's the beginning of dumTrek, where the rule of cool replaces science fiction.
Kind of like when there's a freaking galley with scullery cooks and hand-ladles in Star Trek VI. Even numbers, my foot.
I'd say, "What's next? Sails and oars?" but, of course, that's Star Trek: Generations.
How fast was the battle going in "Ultimate Computer"? If they hit the gravity generator or inertial dampers, the crew immediately becomes paste at the back of the bridge, engine room, etc.
The whole idea that the Genesis Device was able to explode in a Nebula, and then from that FROM both a Star and a planet at the proper distance to be in the habitable zone - and in a couple of hours/days; when it was stated that they programmed it to be shot at just an existing dead planet, was a REAL stretch of that aspect of the story to begin with.
And not something that we would see in the movie.
The action takes place within limping range of the Regula star and indeed the Regula rock. No star can be created, unless the detonation somehow also removes the Regula star, since there are no double shadows anywhere! And for all we know, the Regula rock is the Genesis planet.
TWoK is one of the better excuses for having a superdense nebula: clearly it is in the progress of being sucked into the Regula star or burped out from said, given the extreme proximity. But other Trek staples can also excuse dense nebulae. Most of the really small and compact ones probably are former starships or battle sites... It's just a stroke of luck that "The Ultimate Computer" didn't result in one beyond Canopus.
Beyond this we get Beyond: the definition of nebula can be nebulous even today (considering that, like most astronomical/-logical jargon, it was created yesterday, back when we knew zip about space), and "dense rubble cloud" is as good as any.
Why would any of this be less plausible than the TOS drivel? At least modern writers are abusing better knowledge of astronomy than the TOS ones...
Timo Saloniemi
That was nigh incomprehensible.
*ponders*
Nope. Completely incomprehensible. Seriously. I'm not even trying to be mean.
The battle opened at around Warp 4.
Hmm. Perhaps point by point:
1) Genesis didn't create a star, or there would be two.
2) Genesis may have converted the D-class rock Regula into the Genesis Planet, since it seems to be the only rock in range (nomenclature issues there - if the planets were named in the Star + Numeral system, Regula couldn't go without a number, etc.) and Genesis works on rocks.
3) Dense gas clouds in reality would appear near sources or gravitic attractors. The Regula star is a likely one for both, and the action takes place next to it. We can then haggle the value of "dense".
4) Exploding starships and other artifacts are other ways to turn vacuum into non-vacuum, and possibly a reason for many of the nebulae of Trek. Probably not this one, though.
5) "Nebula" means nothing today. Astronomers are a bunch of traditionalists who used to be a bunch of idiots or ignorami, and the terminology is due an overhaul when we actually go to space. If Trek wants to call its assorted anomalies nebulae, it's free to do so.
Tried to word everything differently. Wanna a third try?
Timo Saloniemi
It has the virtue of being English, but it is a set of assertions counter to reality,
1) and 2) is a stretch. The Mutara Nebula doesn't seem to be colocationary with Regula.
3) This is incorrect. Free floating clouds of greater density than the vacuum around them are free floating.
4) Exploding starships are of negligible mass compared to even the smallest asteroids. Exploding things, by definition, spread their mass out more or less evenly and violently. They would not make clouds of any appreciable density.
5) This is incorrect. There was a time when "nebula" was applied to a great many astronomical phenomena, and even in the 1960s, might be haphazardly applied (along with "galaxy" and "universe").
By 1980, the definition of nebula was constrained to just three things:
a) free floating clouds of appreciable (but still near-vacuum) density ("nebulae"), occasionally excited to high temperature by bright stars within them ("emission nebulae")
b) the remnants of exploded stars ("planetary nebulae")
c) the final stage of a collapsing free floating cloud ("protoplanetary nebulae")
It has been proposed in this thread that the Mutara nebula be a protoplanetary one, and the Genesis device effectively accelerated the process. That would give the device tremendous range (at least 5-10 AU judging from the graphics in the movie). Indeed, what might have been a fun and logical sequel would have been if the device never turned off and was aggressively, destructively terraforming the entire galaxy and had to be turned off...
For the Mutara nebula to be ionized, it would require an ionizer -- a nearby superbright star. Could it be Regula's star? We don't see Mutara from Regula, so it seems unlikely. In any event, an ionized emission nebula (one that absorbs and re-transmits energy given it by a bright star within it) and a planetary nebula are not the same thing.
[/end pedantry]
Hmm. Giving you the benefit of doubt might not have been a good idea after all. Aaaanyway:
If by "seem" you mean "visually right there", we have that one down pat.
If you mean dialogue inferences, then the "limping" part already covers that. The action never went anywhere else.
What would be relevant about free floating here? We don't need to assume Mutara does that, or doesn't do that, or anything. It suffices that its source is nearby, or that Regula is sucking in stuff from everywhere and thus making it denser. Indeed, dynamic should be preferable, over either static or steady state - what we see is pretty dynamic after all!
That in turn would be a matter of timing. And "negligible mass" is what one would certainly prefer in order to obtain those micro-nebulae infamously seen in later Trek.
So progress happens. And ultimately it will reach the levels seen in Trek.
We may know more about space now than in the 1600s, but we still know squat - especially about the supposedly/hopefully unreal phenomena that have permeated Trek ever since the sixties. What exploration of the Trek universe will give us is further diversity, and things classifiable as "nebulae" should hardly be an exception there, what with them still being all over the charts today, as described.
We actually do, but the possible showstopper here is that Spock while does not give a distance, he does give a direction: it's explicit that the heroes aren't within while departing the space rock, but merely nearby.
Yet we might assume that the local gas is of realistic density, and only gets to unrealistic densities and gains a name farther out - perhaps there is a conduit there? Probably not, though. But invisible is desirable in pleasing you anyway, so Regula emissions of desirable sort hitting Mutara across an AU or two of relatively stark vacuum would be the way to go.
Timo Saloniemi
But surely the Mutara Nebula is no worse than the galactic barrier in WNMHGB. And if the TV show was comfortable with Gary Mitchell, Charlie Evans, Trelane, and Apollo, it would hardly draw the line at a dense cloud full of static discharge.
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