How powerful are The Prophets exactly?

[Joel_Kirk]

This is in the Gen. Discussion area since I'm asking the question in regards to the Trek franchise as a whole.

The Prophets were able to stop Dominion forces from coming through the wormhole.

Has it been established The Prophets are more powerful than the Q? (One reason Q hasn't stepped on DS9, or near DS9 since Sisko decked him)...

I'm wondering if the Borg (during the Destiny novels) even touched Bajor since The Prophets seem to hold that area of space sacred....(Something we may see in TrekLit)...

 

[JustKate]

There was a long and rambling discussion on this very thing not too long ago in the DS9 forum. Ah, here it is:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=90142&highlight=prophets

My feeling is...we don't know. And we never will. On the one hand, there are things that can apparently hurt them. That makes it sound as though Q is more powerful. On the other hand, they did do some amazing stuff with little or no apparent effort. And since time has no meaning for them, you'd think they would take steps to avoid risky stuff, but they never bothered. It's as though they knew that nothing "linear" done to them mattered in the slightest.

I mean...can you really kill creatures that don't experience time? What is death but the end of linear time for an individual?

I was left with the feeling that they are so far removed from mortal concerns that we can never understand them. If they are less powerful than the Q, it sure doesn't seem to bother them.

Edit: Oh, but to answer your last question, no, it's never "established" who is more powerful (at least not in the show - I don't know as much about the novels). I don't think it ever came up during DS9, and if it did, it wasn't settled. I sometimes think it's one of those things that nobody except diehard fans even considers.

 

[thew40]

I think they're pretty powerful, but are fairly limited in scope. They can control time and space within the wormhole, but the further away, the less powerful they are -- save for when they take control of someone, such as with Sarah Sisko.

I'd rate them far below the Q, probably even lower than Organians. I'd put them at about the same power level as the Metron. Intensely powerful, but with a limited range.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

There was a long and rambling discussion on this very thing not too long ago in the DS9 forum. Ah, here it is:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=90142&highlight=prophets

Long and rambling....

*shiver*

joking...



I'll have to take a look at it....

My feeling is...we don't know. And we never will. On the one hand, there are things that can apparently hurt them. That makes it sound as though Q is more powerful. On the other hand, they did do some amazing stuff with little or no apparent effort. And since time has no meaning for them, you'd think they would take steps to avoid risky stuff, but they never bothered. It's as though they knew that nothing "linear" done to them mattered in the slightest.

I mean...can you really kill creatures that don't experience time? What is death but the end of linear time for an individual?

I was left with the feeling that they are so far removed from mortal concerns that we can never understand them. If they are less powerful than the Q, it sure doesn't seem to bother them.

Edit: Oh, but to answer your last question, no, it's never "established" who is more powerful (at least not in the show - I don't know as much about the novels). I don't think it ever came up during DS9, and if it did, it wasn't settled. I sometimes think it's one of those things that nobody except diehard fans even considers.

Good answer.

I think the idea that it's 'left up to the imagination' adds to their mystique...

I think they're pretty powerful, but are fairly limited in scope. They can control time and space within the wormhole, but the further away, the less powerful they are -- save for when they take control of someone, such as with Sarah Sisko.

I'd rate them far below the Q, probably even lower than Organians. I'd put them at about the same power level as the Metron. Intensely powerful, but with a limited range.

Yes, they do seem to be limited...but I think as long as it is near Bajor or the wormhole they're a power to be reckoned with.

I'm still going to hold out if they are more or less powerful than the Q...(and I think it's an interesting thought to see if they are more or less powerful than the Organians...)

Good post, though...

 

[JustKate]

There was a long and rambling discussion on this very thing not too long ago in the DS9 forum. Ah, here it is:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=90142&highlight=prophets

Long and rambling....

*shiver*

joking...



I'll have to take a look at it....

Oh, it wasn't quite that bad. If I'm remembering correctly, by the somewhat generous standards of the BBS, it was...well, not succinct, but not insane either. You wouldn't have to take a vacation day to read the entire thread or anything like that.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

There was a long and rambling discussion on this very thing not too long ago in the DS9 forum. Ah, here it is:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=90142&highlight=prophets

Long and rambling....

*shiver*

joking...



I'll have to take a look at it....

Oh, it wasn't quite that bad. If I'm remembering correctly, by the somewhat generous standards of the BBS, it was...well, not succinct, but not insane either. You wouldn't have to take a vacation day to read the entire thread or anything like that.

Cool...

Tks, Diabolikate...

 

[chakotay_lover]

I jsut finished watching Ds9 all the way through and I would say that since the wormhole aliens live in a different dimisions or reality and that they are so focused on bajor that they do have limited powers, they are not more powerful than the Q, they really not all that powerful, they control the wormhole, and some peoples minds, they can take over peoples bodies and predict the future, but many species we have seen can do that. So Im not sure they are so powerful, and certainly not as powerful as the Q

 

[Damask]

I jsut finished watching Ds9 all the way through and I would say that since the wormhole aliens live in a different dimisions or reality and that they are so focused on bajor that they do have limited powers, they are not more powerful than the Q, they really not all that powerful, they control the wormhole, and some peoples minds, they can take over peoples bodies and predict the future, but many species we have seen can do that. So Im not sure they are so powerful, and certainly not as powerful as the Q

They don't predict the future. They know everything! They live outside time. They also changed the timeline in Accession.

 

[Sci]

I see no evidence that the Prophets are limited in power, on that they are limited in powers they have demonstrated.

 

[M'Sharak]

I see no evidence that the Prophets are limited in power, on that they are limited in powers they have demonstrated.

Indeed. Rather than this, I suspect that they're simply disinclined to intervene, in most instances, or altogether uninterested in the matters of linear, corporeal beings. On the rare occasions when we do see them act, they seem quite capable of taking care of whatever business they decide needs taking care of. How do they measure up against The Q (or anyone else) power-wise? Don't know -- it's never seemed to me to be a question which needed answering, particularly.

 

[Bertie]

I don't know, to my eyes, the fact that the Prophets can be harmed by Federation-level technology brings them down a notch in the ole' Trek hierarchy of god-like beings. Down to the level of, say, TOS's Apollo. Powerful, yes, but not in the class of the Q.

 

[Anika Hanson]

I think the Q are more powerful. I think the Q are all powerful/omnipotent. However I think there are limits to the Prophets powers.

 

[Sci]

I don't know, to my eyes, the fact that the Prophets can be harmed by Federation-level technology brings them down a notch in the ole' Trek hierarchy of god-like beings. Down to the level of, say, TOS's Apollo. Powerful, yes, but not in the class of the Q.

It's a modern Western cultural bias to think that a being must be invulnerable to be divine or otherwise all-powerful. Certainly the ancient Greeks, Romans, and Vikings all believed in gods that had vulnerabilities.

Mind you, I'm not saying that the Prophets are gods or that they're all-powerful -- just that the fact that Federation science can harm them doesn't mean they're not Q-level in power.

I think the Q are more powerful. I think the Q are all powerful/omnipotent. However I think there are limits to the Prophets powers.

Similarly, I see no evidence that the Q are all-powerful. Certainly they're extremely powerful, and are powerful enough that the distinction between being omnipotent and effectively omnipotent from the Federation's point of view may have no practical distinction, but the fact remains that they have not demonstrated omnipotence.

Further, we saw in "The Q and the Grey" that humanoids are capable of wielding weapons against the Q, and that a Federation starship is capable of penetrating the Q Continuum.

I think it's entirely possible that that the Prophets and the Q have a similar level of power.

 

[Bertie]

That the Q are not capital-G Gods does not preclude one from claiming them to be stronger than other god-like beings in Trek; that Our Heroes are capable of harming certain god-like beings and are totally helpless against other god-like beings is, in fact, evidence of relative power under any reasonable definition of the word "evidence". It is, of course, not necessarily conclusive evidence, but it is quite simply wrong to say to state, as you do, that there is "no evidence" at all.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

After reading the link that Diabolink Kate posted, I want to liken the Prohets to B-5's Kosh (and his people) who didn't really show their power save for certain periods...

I know that opens up yet another comparison between B-5 and DS9, but the best shows have fans and people talking about it..and both shows were good...

I digress, though....

I forget how powerful Kosh and his people were, so I'm just throwing it out there....

It's one of those things left speculated, because it makes them--in this case, The Prophets--more mysterious...

 

[I am not Spock]

The Q aren't omnipotent. Far beyond mere humans, but not gods.

The Prophets are probably lower than the Q. I'd put them on the same level as the Organians.

I think it goes:

Q
Cytherians
Prophets
Organians
Species 8472
Borg
Dominion

 

[Sci]

That the Q are not capital-G Gods does not preclude one from claiming them to be stronger than other god-like beings in Trek; that Our Heroes are capable of harming certain god-like beings and are totally helpless against other god-like beings is, in fact, evidence of relative power under any reasonable definition of the word "evidence".

Except that "The Q and the Gray" establishes that Our Heroes are capable of hurting the Q.

 

[I am not Spock]

^Yeah VOY messed up the Q as much as they did the Borg, in some ways.

 

[Myasishchev]

^Moreso, really. A lot of VOY's Borg problems can be laid squarely at the feet of First Contact. Their treatment of Q, by contrast, has no such excuse.

Re the OP--powerful enough that it's probably pretty sensible for the Bajorans to worship them, not powerful enough to physically and directly assist, and also rather mysterious and/or indifferent in their ways. I think they're virtually omnipotent within their environment (and the pah wraiths might be too) but outside it are very limited and rather awkward.

 

[Deks]

^Yeah VOY messed up the Q as much as they did the Borg, in some ways.

Why?
Because it stuck with the premise 'the more advanced tech you have at your disposal, you and your culture will appear as 'divine' to others?
Or was it because Voyager crew used Q weapons to fight in the civil war?
It was established that Q can be injured and even killed with the proper technology (Q tech in this instance).

The Q are simply more advanced technologically, and possibly mentally in terms of portraying abilities (although technology was used on numerous occasions to create an illusion that someone has certain abilities, when in fact, they didn't).

Voyager episode 'Death Wish' for example had Quinn tell Tuvok the following:
'We may appear to be omnipotent to you, but in reality, we're not'.
He also told him that to numerous races who are on a more primitive level of technological development, Voyager and it's crew would appear 'god-like' and that it's no different with the Q.

Why is there a need for some humans to glorify anything more powerful than them (or things they don't understand) as 'gods', or in any religious sense whatsoever?
That's such a primitive way of thinking that it's not even funny ... especially in this day and age.

I agree that there are numerous things we cannot explain, but resorting to religion is equivalent to saying: I don't want to understand it because it requires too much thinking.

Q and the Wormhole Aliens ... well, in the Wormhole Aliens defense, they did have an actual Wormhole ... an object that interacted with linear time and was accessible to corporeal entities.
Thus, the Feds had an opportunity and time to study how it works, although certain aspects of it's function will still take time to decipher as their own knowledge of the galaxy and universe grows.

The Q on the other hand don't really have their 'toys' dispersed throughout the Milky Way (at least from what we know), and as a result, the Feds really had no way of analyzing, much less understand on makes the Q tick.

Power-wise, for all we know, the Q and Wormhole aliens are evenly matched.
We just have too little data to go on.