How popular was "Space Seed" before ST2 came out?

[Jonas Grumby]

Although I loved II from the first time I saw it to today, my only regret is that Khan was changed (by circumstances, mostly) from a subtle schemer to an over-the-top moustache-twirler.

Just because Khan had reasons for changing into a ragged, scenery-chewing, vengeance-obsessed madman, that doesn't mean it isn't a major step down from the debonair, cunning Napoleon type that he was originally.

That's exactly how I feel about it.

Incidentally, someone once opined to me that my preference for the Khan of Space Seed over TWOK version was probably just because I had spent years becoming fond of that version of the character before the movie came out. However, I first saw TWOK with a friend who had never followed the TV series. We watched my taped copy of Space Seed before heading for the theater, and afterwards his reaction to the "evolution" of the Khan character was the same as mine. So that obviously isn't always the reason.

 

[Bixby]

Obviously my biggest gripe is with McGivers. There's a hint of her being dissatisfied with her life; she's annoyed she can't work on her painting when called to duty by Kirk, a captain who can't give enough of a shit about her to learn her name, and who publicly disses her as someone who doesn't do much work. ("here's a chance for that historian to do something for a change, what's her name - Mick-givvers?")

No wonder she got so flustered at being paged for landing party duty. What would be the odds of needing Earth-specific data when located about 6000 lightyears away from the Milky Way? Sounds like the ultimate cushy job, that is if she can keep from being blown out an airlock, or turned into an odd styrofoam shape and crushed on a whim...
It's not like they had a Vulcan historian or an Andorian historian among the other 400 crewmen, that was probably Spock's or the ship's computer's job.
In fact, in every other TOS episode needing some history exposition, it was always Spock who handled that duty.
If Kirk was annoyed at McGivers, it was justifyably so, it's not like she offered any insight or information that a library computer could not have done as well...

(Yes yes, of course McGivers' assignment as earth historian was a one-off deal, created specifically to have her bond more quickly with Khan)

 

[Christopher]

No wonder she got so flustered at being paged for landing party duty. What would be the odds of needing Earth-specific data when located about 6000 lightyears away from the Milky Way?

Umm, if they were near Ceti Alpha (or more properly, Alpha Ceti), then they were only about 250 light-years from Earth -- and given that the Botany Bay was a pre-warp vessel which had been in slower-than-light flight for about 270 years, it really couldn't have been much farther away than that anyway.

The only time Kirk's Enterprise was any significant distance outside the Milky Way was in "By Any Other Name" courtesy of the Kelvans. Otherwise, pretty much the entirety of TOS took place within a very small portion of a single spiral arm of the Milky Way. It's a very big galaxy.

Besides, why assume she was just an Earth historian? Kirk only said she was familiar with late 20th-century Earth; he never said it was her exclusive area of study.

It's not like they had a Vulcan historian or an Andorian historian among the other 400 crewmen, that was probably Spock's or the ship's computer's job.
In fact, in every other TOS episode needing some history exposition, it was always Spock who handled that duty.

First off, that's due to limitations on the casting budget and needs to be considered with that in mind. Realistically, it makes no sense that even Spock could do all the work himself, particularly given that he has to juggle the duties of both first officer (a full-time job in itself) and science officer. It's reasonable to assume that Spock is often just relaying the entire science department's research findings to the captain. Maybe when he's looking into his hooded viewer, what he's seeing includes reports filed by the junior members of the science department down belowdecks, which he then distills into a quick, handy lecture for the captain. After all, there are 430 people on the ship; they have to be contributing something.

Besides, being a historian isn't just about reciting memorized facts. The actual job of a historian is to research historical texts, records, and other accounts and formulate models and interpretations of the past based on that evidence (it's the complement to the job of an archaeologist, who does the same by studying artifacts, remains, and other physical evidence instead of written/recorded material). Alien planets have their own histories which inform their present-day cultures, and discovering those histories would be an important part of the process of exploration. Presumably the job of a starship historian would be to study the historical records and documents that exist on the alien planets visited by the ship, or to interview the natives and collect oral history, and then formulate theories about the planets' historical and social development.

Not to mention that a historian might be able to recognize that an alien society has similarities to some historical culture, and thereby gain insight into the aliens based on that comparative precedent.

(Oddly, though, both the Starfleet historian characters we've seen in canon -- McGivers in "Space Seed" and Erickson in "Yesteryear" -- have been in services red, not sciences blue.)

 

[Therin of Andor]

(Oddly, though, both the Starfleet historian characters we've seen in canon -- McGivers in "Space Seed" and Erickson in "Yesteryear" -- have been in services red, not sciences blue.)

Yeah, I recall we discussed this a while ago. Carolyn Palamas was the the archaeology and anthropology officer in blue.

My theory is that some of them specialized in the more clerical side of the historian role, hence services red.

TNG's Lt. Marla Aster was also an archeology specialist, in sciences teal.

 

[Destructor]

The first time I saw the episode on Sunday-morning TV (in the early 80s, probably) was before I really understood what Star Trek really was- but I remember I was very struck by the idea of a ship full of people in suspended animation. There was something very scary and exciting about that premise- it may not be played out in the episode itself, but when they come onboard and the Kahn chamber starts to revive him... surely that is an iconic Trek moment. It was for me, at any rate.

 

[Ssosmcin]

If there's anything about this episode that stands out is that lovely piece of background score as Kirk breaks Khan out of his chamber. It was never used before and it's edited abruptly, but going by the tune, it sounds like Fred Steiner. Could be an unused cue from "Balance of Terror" (possibly originally to underscore a scene in the phasrer room at the climax), but whever it's from, it's very nice and never heard again.

 

[Christopher]

If there's anything about this episode that stands out is that lovely piece of background score as Kirk breaks Khan out of his chamber. It was never used before and it's edited abruptly, but going by the tune, it sounds like Fred Steiner. Could be an unused cue from "Balance of Terror" (possibly originally to underscore a scene in the phasrer room at the climax), but whever it's from, it's very nice and never heard again.

No, listen to the melody -- it's the same as one that's used in Joseph Mullendore's score to "The Conscience of the King," just slower, louder, and more dramatic. So it may be an unused cue from that episode (or maybe it was used in that episode, so you might want to double-check that).

Then again, it wasn't unprecedented for Trek composers to use each other's melodies. George Duning paraphrased a bit of Gerald Fried's "Amok Time" score in "Return to Tomorrow" and "The Empath," and I think he quoted Steiner's Romulan/Mirror-Universe theme for Henoch in the former. However, Steiner generally only cribbed from his own previous scores (the main ST fanfare that almost all composers used notwithstanding).

 

[Ssosmcin]

No, listen to the melody -- it's the same as one that's used in Joseph Mullendore's score to "The Conscience of the King," just slower, louder, and more dramatic. So it may be an unused cue from that episode (or maybe it was used in that episode, so you might want to double-check that).

Shit, you're right. I was stupidly thinking of a cue in BoT which was actually FROM Conscience of the King. The flourishes are more Mullendore's thing anyway.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't used in King, but I'll double check. My memory cred is low this morning. Thanks for the correction.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Then again, it wasn't unprecedented for Trek composers to use each other's melodies.

The whole industry, for that matter. I've been watching the early '60s anthology series Thriller on Netflix lately (which I cannot recommend highly enough), and have been struck by not only how marvelous the scores are (by Jerry Goldsmith and several other excellent composers of the day), but also by how similar many of the music cues are to some in Star Trek.

 

[Bixby]

Umm, if they were near Ceti Alpha (or more properly, Alpha Ceti), then they were only about 250 light-years from Earth -- and given that the Botany Bay was a pre-warp vessel which had been in slower-than-light flight for about 270 years, it really couldn't have been much farther away than that anyway.

As you may have noticed, I know next to nothing about space science. I guess I should have used the ever-reliable ''bajillion'' instead of a random number like 6000...

The only time Kirk's Enterprise was any significant distance outside the Milky Way was in "By Any Other Name" courtesy of the Kelvans. Otherwise, pretty much the entirety of TOS took place within a very small portion of a single spiral arm of the Milky Way. It's a very big galaxy.

I bow before you, sir...though what about WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE? Didn't they cross the great barrier and exit onto the neighbouring galaxy? But I digress...

Besides, why assume she was just an Earth historian? Kirk only said she was familiar with late 20th-century Earth; he never said it was her exclusive area of study.

I dunno, I'm pretty sure that in the 60's the writers (including Gene Coon if he was on staff at the time) probably DID mean it and never gave it an afterthought. All humour aside, if Star Trek were created today the members of a starship's crew would probably be envisioned as very similar to the Apollo missions flight crewmen (as elaborated in the excellent series FROM THE EARTH TO THE MOON): outstanding physical specimens with a very clear specialty (pilot, science, etc.), but each trained extensively in related sciences/tasks such as geology, zero gravity walking, first aid, emergency procedures, basic piloting skills, space science and physical science, etc.

I'm going to throw some numbers here, but say for a ship's complement of roughly 400, you have about 100 engineers that keep the ship running, 100 scientists who handle everything from routine analysis to research, 50 medical personnel to treat illnesses to biological analysis, 75 operations crew to handle what keeps the ship going, and 75 security personnel to guard high-risk areas, accompany to planetside and secure against incursions...

(please don't chime in to quibble over my numbers, they are totally random, people)

So with 75 security men, it's safe to assume that on most calm and quiet days only a small fraction of them would be assigned to a post of some kind. Logic dictates these crewmen can't sit on their asses all day, and they fill some sort of duty at another department, for example among the phaser crews, weapons details, etc.

So yes I agree, to finally get back to McGivers, being a historian was probably a minor part of her ship's function...

Besides, being a historian isn't just about reciting memorized facts. The actual job of a historian is to research historical texts, records, and other accounts and formulate models and interpretations of the past based on that evidence... Presumably the job of a starship historian would be to study the historical records and documents that exist on the alien planets visited by the ship, or to interview the natives and collect oral history, and then formulate theories about the planets' historical and social development

I can't disagree with anything you say, because I love history as a subject, and as reading matter. To properly analyse any new planet and civilization, a ship WOULD require the efforts of teams of geologists, biologists, botanists and historians to gather a complete picture.

That said, I based my comment towards McGivers on two things: the Captain's OWN dismissive remark on her, and her total lack of eagerness when summoned to a landing party (''hey McGivers! you finally get a cherry assignment!!'' ''(aww, I had better things to do...ummm)...on my way!''

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It would have been in my top 10 episodes during the rerun era pre movies. I was fascinated by McGivers betrayal, impressed by the mesmerizing suaveness of Montalban and very interested in the eugenics war. So, it was very popular with me, LOL.

 

[Christopher]

The only time Kirk's Enterprise was any significant distance outside the Milky Way was in "By Any Other Name" courtesy of the Kelvans. Otherwise, pretty much the entirety of TOS took place within a very small portion of a single spiral arm of the Milky Way. It's a very big galaxy.

I bow before you, sir...though what about WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE? Didn't they cross the great barrier and exit onto the neighbouring galaxy? But I digress...

No, they tried to get past the barrier but were thrown back into our galaxy. Galaxies aren't right next door to each other. Okay, the Milky Way has maybe one or two small satellites that are only a few thousand light-years away and periodically pass through the disk, but they're the exceptions. Generally there's a huge amount of empty space between galaxies.

http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/

Besides, why assume she was just an Earth historian? Kirk only said she was familiar with late 20th-century Earth; he never said it was her exclusive area of study.

I dunno, I'm pretty sure that in the 60's the writers (including Gene Coon if he was on staff at the time) probably DID mean it and never gave it an afterthought.

I didn't get that impression. Kirk's exact words were, "Oh, I'll need somebody familiar with the late 20th-Century Earth." He never said she was a specialist in that field, just that she was familiar with it. Hell, "Requiem for Methuselah" demonstrated that Spock was familiar with Johannes Brahms's handwriting, but that didn't mean the graphological study of Romantic composers was the only subject he was qualified to address.

All humour aside, if Star Trek were created today the members of a starship's crew would probably be envisioned as very similar to the Apollo missions flight crewmen (as elaborated in the excellent series FROM THE EARTH TO THE MOON): outstanding physical specimens with a very clear specialty (pilot, science, etc.), but each trained extensively in related sciences/tasks such as geology, zero gravity walking, first aid, emergency procedures, basic piloting skills, space science and physical science, etc.

I think it's implicit in TOS that a lot of the crew are cross-trained. Uhura took the helm in one episode. Chekov bounced between science and navigation for a while. Lt. Leslie and other background players were seen filling many different jobs.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I didn't get that impression. Kirk's exact words were, "Oh, I'll need somebody familiar with the late 20th-Century Earth." He never said she was a specialist in that field, just that she was familiar with it. Hell, "Requiem for Methuselah" demonstrated that Spock was familiar with Johannes Brahms's handwriting, but that didn't mean the graphological study of Romantic composers was the only subject he was qualified to address.

I was reading the transcript and Spock seems well enough versed in the time period to make Marla's presence on the boarding party unnecessary.

 

[Christopher]

^Like I said above, that's the conceits of series television, where you have to have one scientist character who knows everything since it isn't dramatically or budgetarily feasible to realistically show a whole crew of experts being drawn on as needed. It was always the case that scientists other than Spock were only included when there was a specific story reason for them to be there. We saw that with other characters like Palamas and D'Amato.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, but we're talking about a major guest-star playing an expert in that field.

 

[Christopher]

^I don't see the difference. Palamas was a major guest star too, and practically an identical character to McGivers -- female crewmember easily seduced by charismatic villain into betraying her captain, yet eventually coming around and helping the good guys win. The only difference is that she didn't stay with Apollo at the end.

And like I said, the whole idea was that you'd only see other crewmembers when the story called for their presence (like Helen Noel, Kevin Riley, Ben Finney, Anne Mulhall, etc.). That was built into the series' original format and premise, part of the formulas of 1960s television. Roddenberry's familiar pitch, "Wagon Train to the stars," didn't just mean "Western in space" the way people interpret it today; it meant a space show that followed the format of Wagon Train, an acclaimed drama of the day which took a semi-anthology approach, in that it had a regular cast but a given episode typically revolved around (and was named for) a featured guest character who was a member of the wagon train, focusing on their personal problems and issues as the driving element of the drama. As Roddenberry wrote in the original 1964 series pitch:

[The ship] is a whole community in which we can anytime take our camera down a passageway and find a guest star or secondary character (scientist, specialst, ordinary airman, passenger or stowaway) who can propel us into a story.

Note that in the TOS end credits, the main guest stars for each episode were billed above recurring players like Doohan, Takei, and Nichols (and Kelley in season 1). '60s TV was very guest-star-driven due to the admiration at the time for the anthology format.

 

[Greg Cox]

I was watching "Return to Tomorrow" again this morning and, yeah, Kirk doesn't recognize astrobiologist Ann Mulhall either. The Enterprise seems to have a lot of underutilized specialists, who only show up when an episode needs an attractive guest-star . . . .