How many of you thought that they did it right?

[label]

It was that you said we got to see where characters ended up, and that is really just dead.

Sure, they're dead. But also still existing in some plane of reality and doing so together, having found the individuals who helped heal them and make them whole.

Before this season, the show was never about the characters reminiscing in the afterlife, it was a show about the characters' struggles with their past, their current situation, the mysteries, and their destiny.

I agree. And I think like many good stories, after the climax is over and the main story has been told, it's nice to see how that journey shaped what they became. In this case, we saw that they had found a family that they belonged to who made them each whole.

The whole afterlife bit was a non-sequitur to all that, and on top of that it doesn't even really make sense, in ways that Delta1 illustrated fairly well.

Well, I disagreed with some of his/her thoughts on the matter (feel free to respond to my comments to Delta1), but I don't disagree that it takes a leap of faith to buy into this afterlife thing.

I see the afterlife part of the story as more of a metaphor than a literal "this is what happened to them" type of story-telling device. The point wasn't to say "this is what we believe about the after life"....it was to say, this is where the characters ended up at when they looked back over their lives.

 

[Aragorn]

I liked the ending as it was, but I wish they had gone another direction with the flash-sideways universe. Of course, I also wish Jacob was never on the series. That alone would've altered things significantly.

 

[Delta1]

They were an integral part of the core "family" for the first 3 seasons solid. Bernard was one of three people who went on the A-Team mission to kill the others when they came to kidnap the women.<snip>

Bernard participated, against Rose's wishes IIRC. And then they said goodbye to all that, retired, and were genuinely happy. They weren't genuinely happy living with the losties--they bickered and fought and Rose was something of a shrew. Why would they want to return to the people that brought that out in them? They were much happier alone. And they were alone for years, doing everything they could to avoid re-integration into this family. They spent what, 90 days with the losties and three years living alone?

Huh? How is Rose going to get cancer when she's dead in the Flash Sideways? I know she said she was dying but the stakes weren't for real in that Flash Sideways.....she wouldn't have ever died from Cancer in the FS.

There was a brief ontological debate about the FSU elsewhere, but in the end I think we all agreed they perceived that universe as real up until they were awakened. Rose really, truly believed she had cancer and was dying. She experienced it ... every perception that goes along with cancer, all the pain and fear. Bernard, too, from his POV. Had Desmond not intervened, who's to say what would have happened to her? The sadistic god who makes all the rules for this show probably would have killed her in order to teach Bernard some kind of lesson about "letting go."

Desmond could not have killed Locke in the wheel chair when he hit him. The limitations or trials they experienced in that reality were self-imposed as evidenced by John deciding it was time to leave the wheel chair behind and just get up and go.

The killing thing is debatable, but there's not much point in debating it. I don't believe their limitations were self-imposed. The FSU was a silly, silly idea, but it had at least some semblance of reality--causes preceded effects, laws of nature generally obtained, etc. The characters that woke up still drove cars, used money, walked around, etc--they didn't go Neo. That might have been just an effort at fitting in, but I think it means there were still rules.

Clearly she's there because Desmond's there and like any marriage, you get to go to family reunions when your spouse has them.

Unless you are Nadia. Or Jack's wife, whatsername he operated on. Or Christian's wife. Or Christian's lover. Or Kate's husband, Kevin. Or Kate's boyfriend, Tom. Or Libby's husband. (Was she even there?)

I think the simpler explanation is Desmond woke her up. There was no fate or rationale bringing people together in the church--it was just people Desmond and Hurley wanted to be there. We saw how quickly Des dismissed Ana Lucia. She was no more or less ready to be awakened than anyone else. Ben, for instance. He woke Ben up and even Ben admitted he wasn't ready. Why not wake up Ana Lucia and give her the same choice? Because she was armed and he didn't want to beat up a killer cop with a gun. Even in the afterlife you don't want to get shot.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I wanted a more apocalyptic battle with Smokey, for Ben to actually pull the trigger (they sorta left Ben out of the action in the finale) and for the island to sink/blow up at least temporarily, but overall, I loved it!

 

[Trippy]

The more I think/watch it, the more perfect it was. It is what we want it to be, much like the afterlife for our losties was what they made it.

The light that Christian opened up for our losties? I still think it's the light on the island Jacob was the protector of this light (heaven if you want to call it that), and that's why there has to be a protector-to keep the evil in mankind away from it.

 

[Elemental]

They were an integral part of the core "family" for the first 3 seasons solid. Bernard was one of three people who went on the A-Team mission to kill the others when they came to kidnap the women.<snip>

Because the show is as much for the viewers as it is to wrap up the storylines. If you personally can somehow logically dictate the order in which the afterlife runs, then you stand to make a good deal of money. Rose and Bernard were an integral part of a good chunk of the show. We've cared about them they were given their proper dues. I personally am thrilled to see them back and in our concluding scene. Ditto for Penny. I only wish they could have brought back more or been able to shoot in such a way that we believe there could be more but that we just didn't see on camera. Still though, it was a perfect scene.

 

[Delta1]

Like I said ... fan service. Anything to thrill the viewers. But it shouldn't be confused with storytelling.

 

[Mr Light]

I would have liked more answers, but that's only part of the reason I was disappointed with the finale. I wanted a better confrontation with the Monster (notice I said the Monster, and not mortal Locke form). And I'm still not happy with half of Season Six's screen-time being wasted in my eyes.

 

[label]

They weren't genuinely happy living with the losties--they bickered and fought and Rose was something of a shrew.

I definitely agree with you that they still had some healing to do during the early seasons (like most of the characters). However, I don't think living with the Losties was the core of their problems. In fact, I think it was a mistake for them to live as an island when the point of the show and the finale is that everyone needs help and to be part of a family, which I definitely think they were for the first 3-4 seasons.

Why would they want to return to the people that brought that out in them?

Bernard and Rose's real issues weren't caused by living with the Losties, their problems, like everyone else's was inside each of them. Yes, they worked through them to find real peace, but I think it had little to do with being with or apart from the Losties. In fact, I'd argue they were a bit like ostrich's that hid their head under the sand and wasn't part of the struggle for good in a battle that had real consequences. In that way, they were sort of cowards to some degree.

They were much happier alone.

Sure, people who live in denial live that way because they believe they're happier that way. Still, ignoring the struggle against evil doesn't mean that there isn't one. Had Flocke gotten his way, they would have sunk with the island, drowned and evil would have been unleashed on this world and all's they did was bury their heads in the sand and say 'we don't want to be involved'.

And they were alone for years, doing everything they could to avoid re-integration into this family. They spent what, 90 days with the losties and three years living alone?

Yeah, I'd say that's a fair assessment.

Rose really, truly believed she had cancer and was dying. She experienced it ... every perception that goes along with cancer, all the pain and fear. Bernard, too, from his POV. Had Desmond not intervened, who's to say what would have happened to her?

Well, obviously we're just guessing here - and as an aside I really don't think the writers wanted us to examine the rules that govern this afterlife staging area - but the cancer would never actually claim here and she would struggle with it till she worked through it or just kept struggling with it forever.

Unless you are Nadia.

Sayid deemed himself unworthy of Nadia. That he saw Shannon as what he deserved is more telling about Sayid's self-view than how he perceived Nadia.

Or Jack's wife, whatsername he operated on. Or Christian's wife. Or Christian's lover. Or Kate's husband, Kevin. Or Kate's boyfriend, Tom. Or Libby's husband. (Was she even there?)

Libby was there. And according to who was in the church, those people who weren't there weren't who the people they cared the most about.

I hear what you're saying about the church scene being for the fans and not for the story and to a degree I can buy that. Still, I think the whole notion that these people who spent the first 3-4 years together as a family, struggling to work through everything the island threw at them bonded with those particular people in ways that they didn't with anyone else and that's why there in the church. Christian said as much when he said that Jack's time on the island was the most important time to him and those people would naturally mean the most.

 

[McCoy]

...they sorta left Ben out of the action in the finale...

I don't know, he was the only one attacked by a tree.

 

[AlanC9]

The killing thing is debatable, but there's not much point in debating it. I don't believe their limitations were self-imposed. The FSU was a silly, silly idea, but it had at least some semblance of reality--causes preceded effects, laws of nature generally obtained, etc. The characters that woke up still drove cars, used money, walked around, etc--they didn't go Neo. That might have been just an effort at fitting in, but I think it means there were still rules.

Sure, there are rules. But they only apply while you're playing the game.

Unless you are Nadia. Or Jack's wife, whatsername he operated on. Or Christian's wife. Or Christian's lover. Or Kate's husband, Kevin. Or Kate's boyfriend, Tom. Or Libby's husband. (Was she even there?)

Christian's wife doesn't count -- he's not a guest, he's the MC.

As for the others, we're just going to have to accept that Shannon is the real thing for Sayid, and Nadia was not. Jack and Kate are the real thing, and not Kate and Tom or Jack and either ex-wife. Et cetera and so forth.

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

I've asked this before over in the review thread but nobody answered, so let me get this straight, if you die in this collectively made construct of a waiting room to the after life, like Keamy, Patchy and the other henchmen did, where do they even go? Or were they actually them and/or even there in the first place or just figments from the memories of our main characters. Not just them, but everybody else in that world. Like was this essentially a holodeck program for our Losties?

Or does plain of conciousness filled with everybody who dies in the real world and lives in this world until they are enlightened or awakened and led to move on? Maybe this question deserves it's own thread so follow me there and help me speculate!

 

[Jetfire]

"They could have given us a few more answers, but I liked/loved it anyway."

Very emotional and played out very well...but missing some of the answers most were looking for...to be honest none of the mysteries surrounding the island should have been answered in the finale...it should have been done before and then just let the flash-sideways and character stuff come together...like what happened.

 

[Delta1]

Sure, there are rules. But they only apply while you're playing the game.

So why play the game? Why did Desmond and Hurley go through their various manipulations? Why did Christian conceal himself until his coffin was recovered? Why didn't they just transfigure themselves into Jesus, sound a trumpet, and release the captive souls?

The only explanation is that the rules still applied up until the very end. They couldn't simply decide to stop playing by the rules, not until they made the decision to leave the construct universe and go somewhere else with fewer rules. As long as they were in the pocket universe, they had to play by that universe's physical laws.

Christian's wife doesn't count -- he's not a guest, he's the MC.

No, if anything, he's a guest. The phantasm universe was created by the losties so they could find each other. Jack wanted to find Christian. Therefore, he pulled Christian in. But Christian apparently wasn't allowed to take part in the universe-building, on account of being dead, or maybe he was drunk and missed the vote, who knows. Plenty of other dead people showed up and got second lives. At least one non-islander showed up. Why couldn't this dead person bring the non-islanders who meant the most to him?

Adding MCs to the afterlife needlessly complicates things. We've already got people who aren't real, people who might be real, people who are dead dying again (provided that they were real), people who are dead but don't know it, people who are dead and don't know it but remember when they were alive, people who were dead and know it, and a person who was dead and knows it and knows everyone else is dead and the nature of the ersatz universe. If you posit an MC role to explain why Christian didn't participate in the communal illusion to the same extent as the others, or why he didn't pull in his loved ones, you create another category of dead person. I see William of Ockham approaching us with a mad gleam in his eyes.

As for the others, we're just going to have to accept that Shannon is the real thing for Sayid, and Nadia was not. Jack and Kate are the real thing, and not Kate and Tom or Jack and either ex-wife. Et cetera and so forth.

Just as we'd have to accept a battalion of zebra-striped kangaroos chanting the digits of pi on the beach, had the series ended on that note. It doesn't mean the kangaroos are immune to criticism. They're a stupid idea, not a logical consequence of what came before, they don't tell us anything about the characters or the plot, they add an unnecessary complication to an already complex fictional universe, and their appearance is dictated by animal wrangler availability and some twisted idea of fan service. The roos may be emotionally satisfying on some noncritical level, but once you ask "why" the whole thing falls apart.

 

[Jono]

A few more answers would have been nice...mainly why the light was so magic, why MiB when smoky but no one else did, etc. I still loved it and felt that my time spent watching LOST over these last 6 years was worth it in the end.

 

[PlainSimpleJoel]

I thought it was near perfect, but that is after watching the final episode twice, and crying numerous times during both screenings. I'll probably need to watch all of season 6 again, before deciding what I actually think of it.

 

[Agent Richard07]

I've asked this before over in the review thread but nobody answered, so let me get this straight, if you die in this collectively made construct of a waiting room to the after life, like Keamy, Patchy and the other henchmen did, where do they even go? Or were they actually them and/or even there in the first place or just figments from the memories of our main characters. Not just them, but everybody else in that world. Like was this essentially a holodeck program for our Losties?

Or does plain of conciousness filled with everybody who dies in the real world and lives in this world until they are enlightened or awakened and led to move on? Maybe this question deserves it's own thread so follow me there and help me speculate!

I was thinking about that too and came up with two possibilities...

1) Keamy and the other henchmen were just figments of Sayid and Jin's imaginations.

2) Keamy and the henchmen were real ghosts in the afterlife and when they "died" again, they got shunted off to another version of the afterlife where they could continue to work out their unresolved issues.

 

[label]

I've asked this before over in the review thread but nobody answered, so let me get this straight, if you die in this collectively made construct of a waiting room to the after life, like Keamy, Patchy and the other henchmen did, where do they even go? Or were they actually them and/or even there in the first place or just figments from the memories of our main characters. Not just them, but everybody else in that world. Like was this essentially a holodeck program for our Losties?

Or does plain of conciousness filled with everybody who dies in the real world and lives in this world until they are enlightened or awakened and led to move on? Maybe this question deserves it's own thread so follow me there and help me speculate!

I was thinking about that too and came up with two possibilities...

1) Keamy and the other henchmen were just figments of Sayid and Jin's imaginations.

2) Keamy and the henchmen were real ghosts in the afterlife and when they "died" again, they got shunted off to another version of the afterlife where they could continue to work out their unresolved issues.

My take on the alt-reality is that everyone besides those people who were in the church were not really there. So Jack's son was never there, it was a manifestation of an issue Jack needed to resolve. The "threats" to their "lives" (gunshot wounds, cancer, getting hit by a car, etc) weren't real threats in the first place.