How many alien starfleet captians exist in tREK?

[JamesRKirk]

I saw Hernandez as a guest star because in my mind I tend to break up the books like episodes. I just meant that she wasn't one of the recurring crew and was on;y present for this story. She was simply doing the end of her story that we'd seen the beginning of when she took command of Columbia.

To my mind, a god is a being that exists outside of our understanding or our ability to understand. From the first trip through the wormhole we gained scientific understanding of it. It was created by the prophets and operated by scientific principles, at least as they exist on Star Trek. Picard didn't believe Q when he claimed to be a god and I don't believe that the prophets fit the bill either.

 

[Sci]

I saw Hernandez as a guest star because in my mind I tend to break up the books like episodes. I just meant that she wasn't one of the recurring crew and was on;y present for this story.

Then you're essentially trying to shoe-horn Star Trek: Destiny into a form of categorization to which it is inapplicable. It's not an episode, and it's not a TNG, DS9, or TTN trilogy. It's its own trilogy, and Hernandez is its main character.

To my mind, a god is a being that exists outside of our understanding or our ability to understand.

Ah, but such a definition is actually unscientific, as it denies the possibility that it might ever be possible to gain knowledge of such an entity. Why must a god be necessarily beyond any scientific understanding?

From the first trip through the wormhole we gained scientific understanding of it. It was created by the prophets and operated by scientific principles, at least as they exist on Star Trek.

But DS9 also consistently established that the Prophets operated beyond the understanding of Federation scientists. They understood part of how the Prophets existed and operated, but not all.

Picard didn't believe Q when he claimed to be a god and I don't believe that the prophets fit the bill either.

Well, Q didn't claim to be a god, he claimed to be "God" -- as in, presumably, the Judeo-Christian God. This admittedly seems far more improbable than that he is a god.

 

[Sjaddix]

Qs could very well be gods but they are not GOD. So in the polytheistic classical sense the Qs could probably fit the bill quite well. In the Judeo-Christian and other Monotheistic systems no. He could make the case for Angel or Archangel though I suppose. Prophets could make similar arguments.

 

[JamesRKirk]

Can god create a rock so big he can't lift it? Either way, he's not all powerful.

Once you've got a scientific explanation for even a part of god then they're no longer supernatural, that is existing outside the laws of nature.

"One could imagine that God created the universe at the instant of the big bang, or even afterwards in just such a way as to make it look as though there had been a big bang, but it would be meaningless to suppose that it was created before the big bang. An expanding universe does not preclude a creator, but it does place limits on when he might have carried out his job!"

Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time

 

[Sjaddix]

that is your definition. there is no set definition though.

 

[JamesRKirk]

Very true. All it really means in this context is that I'm looking forward to reading the Sisko & Bashir stories and not the Kira one. I'll take a wait and see attitude on that one if it's a stand alone book or just see how it goes if it's integrated with the other stories.

 

[Sjaddix]

Still in general as I said the Prophets and Qs are not GOD in the captial G sense but I be fine calling them gods lowercase g in the classical sense.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Well, what is a god, anyway? What traits distinguish godhood from other statuses, and in what way do the Prophets lack such traits? Or Q, for that matter?

A god is a concept which provides a culture with a focus of belief, aspiration, and ethical thought, and which influences the actions and choices of those who embrace the concept. This is the case whether or not the concept maps onto an objectively real entity or phenomenon.

In this case, a cult leader - the kind that orders his followers to commit suicide - is, indeed, a god.

All that is required for this statement to be true is to use rather low standards for naming a human grouping a culture or a civillisation.
And I know for a fact that you do use such low standards in defining the concepts.

Can god create a rock so big he can't lift it? Either way, he's not all powerful.

God can only create a rock so big he can't lift it and still be able to lift it if God is beyond logic.
In that case, God can make this rock or can make a square circle or any other such absurdity.

It also means God can create a morally perfect world and, yet, give humans free will, choice to do evil, etc.
The fact that God did not create such a world means God is not omni-beneolent.

So - either God is not omni-benevolent, or he is not omni-potent.

Absolutes quickly lead to contradictions.

Picard didn't believe Q when he claimed to be a god and I don't believe that the prophets fit the bill either.

Well, Q didn't claim to be a god, he claimed to be "God" -- as in, presumably, the Judeo-Christian God. This admittedly seems far more improbable than that he is a god.

Actually, considering his demonstrated power (for example, the ability to create whole universes, complete with sentients), it makes more sense to worship Q than most - or even any - of the gods worshipped during humanity's history.
He may actually answer a prayer once in a while.

 

[Christopher]

I think trying to define religious concepts in terms of objective fact is missing the point. Religion and spirituality are about the individual's relationship to the universe, the beliefs that inspire and comfort the individual. It's not just about how you think the universe or your world or your species was created in the distant past; it's about the values and convictions that guide your choices in the present.

It seems to me that the Bajorans and the rest of the Federation agree about certain fundamentals where the Prophets are concerned: they are beings who transcend linear spacetime and thus have powers and perception far beyond ours, and they have chosen to offer revelations and guidance to the Bajoran people, with whom they have a special relationship. So whether they're considered divine or not strikes me as not a matter of objective definition so much as one of subjective interpretation and inspiration, of what these facts mean to the individual -- whether it's just a matter of scientific curiosity or whether it's the foundation of the ethical and philosophical framework that gives your life meaning. And a pluralistic society like the Federation would respect that difference of interpretation.

After all, there are many different ways of defining divinity. "Supernatural" is a concept of Western civilization on Earth, the idea that divinity is something beyond or separate from the physical world, that there's a dualistic divide between "base" matter and spiritual essence. It's part of Western civilization's Manichaean tradition of defining the world in terms of conflicting opposites. Not every culture shares that belief. In some cultures, there is no distinction drawn between the natural and the spiritual; divinity is seen as part of every living thing, and a god isn't some ultimate being that lives apart from the world but is an animating essence inherent in a part of nature itself. In that belief system, the word "supernatural" has no meaning, since divinity is considered part of nature.

Indeed, there are spiritual belief systems that have no god at all in the sense of a personified being -- that see a divine essence guiding the universe but perceive it more like a law of nature operating spontaneously. Buddhism in its purest form and Jainism are nontheistic religions, and so is traditional Confucian belief in China, if you can even call that a religion (they believed in a divine Mandate that, to paraphrase Gandhi, caused the arc of the universe to tend toward justice, but more in the manner of a physical law than a monarch's dictates).

So the problem with judging a different culture's view of gods is that the English word "god" may only be a very poor and imprecise translation for whatever concept they actually believe in -- making it dangerous to assume that your own perceptions of the word are relevant or meaningful in that context. Part of understanding others is being able to question yourself.

 

[JamesRKirk]

However it was made pretty clear during the run of DS9 that there was no mistranslation and that the Bajorans do believe the wormhole aliens to be what we would call gods. They worshiped them, prayed to them, built temples for them. They even bombed the schoolhouse when the wormhole was treated as anything less than holy and divine.

That's the part I find sad about the direction Kira's life has taken in the years that we've missed in the DS9 story. It seems obvious that she's had some sort of major, life changing experience and rather than accept things as they are and move forward she's retreated into superstition and religion. She's seen enough during her time on the station that she should be more open to seeing the prophets as they are and not as thousands of years or religious dogma has claimed them to be. Instead she looks more like he prefers fantasy to reality. A sad turn for a character.

 

[Sci]

However it was made pretty clear during the run of DS9 that there was no mistranslation and that the Bajorans do believe the wormhole aliens to be what we would call gods.

Not really. The exact Bajoran concept of "god" was never explained -- nor, for that matter, have you yet explained your concept of a god, other than that you subscribe to the Western idea that they're supernatural. But there's no reason to think that the Bajorans regard gods as necessarily a supernatural phenomena -- especially since they seem quite unperturbed by the prospect that the scientifically-verified-to-exist Wormhole Aliens are in fact their Prophets.

They worshiped them, prayed to them, built temples for them. They even bombed the schoolhouse when the wormhole was treated as anything less than holy and divine.

Wow, wow, wow. Hold your horses there. One faction of Bajorans did it, and they did it because they were being manipulated by Winn Adami in her quest to gain political support for being elected Kai. "They" did not do it; a small number bombed the DS9 school.

That's the part I find sad about the direction Kira's life has taken in the years that we've missed in the DS9 story. It seems obvious that she's had some sort of major, life changing experience and rather than accept things as they are and move forward she's retreated into superstition and religion.

I'm perfectly happy to accept that you don't believe the Prophets to be gods, but I'm flabberghasted to think that anyone could reasonably call "superstition" a belief system whose principle subjects of worship are scientifically verified to exist and who has empirically demonstrated their abilities to manipulate matter, see the "future," make accurate predictions about the future, and provide emotional guidance to their worshippers.

"Superstition" means that it's hockum but people belive it irrationally -- like the idea that you'll have seven years of bad luck if you break a mirror. It is, in other words, a belief system held in spite of empirical evidence. The Bajoran religion, by contrast, looks a great deal more empirical to me. You may disagree on whether the nature of the Prophets warrants worship and submission, but Prophet-worship is, at the very least, not a superstition -- it's not a belief system held in spite of evidence.

She's seen enough during her time on the station that she should be more open to seeing the prophets as they are

Kira has always been a deeply religious character, and it's silly to argue otherwise. You are the one who insists that there's some division between the divine and the temporal world, not Kira and not the Bajorans. She sees the Prophets as they truly are just fine -- she's well aware that they are extra-dimensional entities that live in the Wormhole, exist outside of linear time, communicate with corporeal humanoids, and occasionally intervene in humanoid affairs. She just interprets what they truly are differently than you do.

 

[JamesRKirk]

I'm reminded of The Apple. Once the true nature of Vaal was revealed then it was OK to turn the natives towards a new life, one that didn't need gods. If Vaal was on Bajor and people still insisted on worshiping it would you not say that the people were being foolish? After all, Vaal was shown to actually exist, to control the weather, to punish the wicked and comminicate with the believers. Just because one is made out of electronicas instead of neutrinos and tetrions does that make one more worthy of worship especially to someone who's willing to overlook the physicality of their "god"?

 

[Therin of Andor]

That's the part I find sad about the direction Kira's life has taken in the years that we've missed in the DS9 story. It seems obvious that she's had some sort of major, life changing experience

We saw these events, or at least the start of them.

rather than accept things as they are and move forward she's retreated into superstition and religion.

We don't know that. She may see that getting to know the Wormhole aliens better is a "move forward" in trying to understand her new relationship with them.

She's seen enough during her time on the station that she should be more open to seeing the prophets as they are

How do you know that Kira is not "more open"?

Instead she looks more like he prefers fantasy to reality.

Where? This is the so-far-untold part of Kira's story, isn't it?

A sad turn for a character.

In a story that is yet to be written, so how do you know it's "sad"?

 

[JamesRKirk]

Kira came to realize that there's more to the universe through her time on DS9 as well as when she was Attained. The broadening of her view would tend to lead her to understanding that there's more than just what her religion tells her. From the fact that she's now a Vedek shows that she's retreating even further into religion, a weakness in my view. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Sci]

I'm reminded of The Apple. Once the true nature of Vaal was revealed then it was OK to turn the natives towards a new life, one that didn't need gods.

Of course, there's a difference between a culture that is being manipulated and doesn't understand what a computer is or how it's manipulating them, and an ancient, already-scientifically-advanced culture that worships entities that it knows to be extra-dimensional lifeforms -- extra-dimensional lifeforms that do not, as near as we can tell, manipulate them.

Kira came to realize that there's more to the universe through her time on DS9 as well as when she was Attained. The broadening of her view would tend to lead her to understanding that there's more than just what her religion tells her.

Kira's journey in that arc was realizing that the church's orthodoxy may not always be true and may represent institutional biases. But that's not the same thing as rejecting faith in the Prophets.

Remember -- she was excommunicated because of an accurate prophecy conveyed to an ancient Bajoran apparently by the Prophets. If anything, her excommunication would re-affirm her faith in the Prophets, even if it undermined her faith in the church.

 

[Christopher]

I'm reminded of The Apple. Once the true nature of Vaal was revealed then it was OK to turn the natives towards a new life, one that didn't need gods. If Vaal was on Bajor and people still insisted on worshiping it would you not say that the people were being foolish? After all, Vaal was shown to actually exist, to control the weather, to punish the wicked and comminicate with the believers. Just because one is made out of electronicas instead of neutrinos and tetrions does that make one more worthy of worship especially to someone who's willing to overlook the physicality of their "god"?

That's a very inept analogy. Vaal was a machine that held the Gamma Triangulans under its strict, dictatorial control, inhibiting their freedom of choice and using them merely to feed itself. The Bajorans have always had freedom of choice, and they chose to revere the Prophets. Not because they were lied to and deceived; on the contrary, the Prophets' guidance, support, and visions of the future are all absolutely real and sincere.

Basically Vaal and the Prophets represent two different extremes of religion. Some people and groups use religion as a blunt instrument to dominate and control people and rob them of their freedom. Others see it as a motivation to be selfless and kind, to do good on behalf of others without asking anything in return. Like most anything else, how religion is used depends on the intent of the user.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Besides, TOS is full of inequalities that shouldn't be perpetuated in future STAR TREK stories. TOS, as originally intended when it was produced, depicts a future where men dominate and women are subordinate; where white men hold most positions of power and are depicted in the most sympathetic light; where Christianity is depicted as the dominant religion; where non-whites are mostly depicted in supporting roles: where black women answer the cosmic telephone and Asian men are the drivers. Naturally, all of these ideas have since been retconned

Let me just point out what is wrong in this post.

a future where men dominate and women are subordinate

The only reason number One didn't stick around was because Roddenberry would cast someone he wasn't sleeping with.

where white men hold most positions of power and are depicted in the most sympathetic light

Commodore Stone: Kirk's superior officer in Court Martial.

Richard Daystrom: the 23rd century version of Bill Gates or Steve Jobs.

Both are non-white characters who are kind of important in this era.

where Christianity is depicted as the dominant religion;

This was said when?

Asian men are the drivers

Didn't stop Sulu from being left in Command in Errand of Mercy.

black women answer the cosmic telephone

and apparently cross trained enough to take over other stations in an emergency.

where non-whites are mostly depicted in supporting roles:

Some of whom in the episode hold higher positions in the pecking order than white guy James T. Kirk.

 

[Sjaddix]

Kira came to realize that there's more to the universe through her time on DS9 as well as when she was Attained. The broadening of her view would tend to lead her to understanding that there's more than just what her religion tells her. From the fact that she's now a Vedek shows that she's retreating even further into religion, a weakness in my view. Your mileage may vary.

you know she will probably get to be Kai even if alot of vedek's our made because they think her special relationship with sisko gave her an unfair advantage.

 

[JD]

That's the part I find sad about the direction Kira's life has taken in the years that we've missed in the DS9 story. It seems obvious that she's had some sort of major, life changing experience and rather than accept things as they are and move forward she's retreated into superstition and religion. She's seen enough during her time on the station that she should be more open to seeing the prophets as they are and not as thousands of years or religious dogma has claimed them to be. Instead she looks more like he prefers fantasy to reality. A sad turn for a character.

Just because someone chooses to follow a believe system than you, that does not mean that they prefer fantasy to reality, or that their life "has taken a sad turn". And besides we are talking about the Prophets here, and I don't see where it would be that hard to accept that they are gods. They've definitely done some very "godly" things when it comes to the Bajorans.

 

[Therin of Andor]

From the fact that she's now a Vedek shows that she's retreating even further into religion, a weakness in my view.

Why is becoming a church leader "a retreat"?

And, even if this is to be a "weak" Kira, surely a strong story of a character overcoming weakness is a classic plot for a future novel?