How long before "The Man Trap" did McCoy know Kirk?

[Commishsleer]

The Enterprise is more than 20 years old - a lot more.
You know Morrow is a fool. Doesn't care. An idiot. Probably was mixing up the Enterprise with another ship.

 

[Henoch]

I agree that the E is much older than 20. Playing devil's advocate, are the writers suggesting that the Pike E we saw in The Menagerie I and II, is not the exactly same ship as given to Kirk at Pike's promotion? Did Pike wreck the old E (she does get shot-up during the DSC Season 2 finale with Control), and Starfleet essentially had to rebuild her; replacing almost every component on the ship?
Unnecessary pew-pew eye candy:

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[Timo]

Well, that wrecking would make her more like 25 years old - an opportunity Morrow would not fail to exploit.

I just hope against hope that they will have to replace the pylons after all that, so we get straight (if double) ones for SNW. Or will that one have taken place before DSC?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Forbin]

Vat de ferk was dat??
Fan film battles are getting crazier all the time!

 

[Neopeius]

*(It's clear that SF time in service is different that the USN: Time in service to be promoted to O-6 is 22 years. [edited the part I misread])

The WW2 wartime promotion track was still fresh in TOS writers' minds.

Howard Cosell went from O-1 to O-4 in four years.

Eisenhower went from O-6 to O-11 in four years.

Matt Ridgway (the poster child for young generals) went from O-5 to O-8 in four months.

 

[Neopeius]

TOS had delusions of progressiveness even if other shows did it better.

I am not disagreeing, but I'm interested to know which contemporary shows you feel did it better.

 

[Neopeius]

So it seems very strange that in the next movie, Star Trek II: The search for Spock , which begins soon after Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan ends, Admiral Morrow, claiming that the Enterprise is old and useless, says:

This always bothered me to no end. The refitted Enterprise is essentially brand new. On the other hand, during the 50s, designs became obsolescent very quickly, so perhaps the movieverse era was similar.

As for the age of the Enterprise in TOS, it's a mature vessel but not an outmoded one. Similar to The Surprise in Master and Commander ("She's not old -- she's in her prime.")

As for Sarah April, it's pretty trivial to read her statement as her having been the First Medical Officer aboard a ship equipped with warp drive, the equivalent of her hubby saying he was the Captain aboard a ship equipped with warp drive. That is, being the CO or the CMO is a bigger responsibility on a deep space starship than on a shallow space sublight boat, and the "First" is merely part of Sarah's title.

Even easier is to add a comma.

"As the first medical officer, aboard a ship equipped with warp drive, I'm afraid I had to come up with new ideas all the time."

She's clearly not the first medical officer ever to be aboard a ship equipped with warp drive -- the Bonaventure is much older than the Enterprise. Unless we want to make the tortured read that there were no medical officers on ships with warp drive until the Enterprise.

Easier to read her statement as, "It was a new ship, I was the first medical officer on it, it was going where no man has gone before (since it had warp drive), so I had to create tools of my own."

 

[Pauln6]

I am not disagreeing, but I'm interested to know which contemporary shows you feel did it better.

Actually, when I look back, shows had pros and cons and US shows seemed to do worse than UK shows. The powerful women in I Dream of Jeannie and Bewitched are both shackled to the whims of very irritating, controlling men. Despite featuring numerous female agents, such as Cinnamon, who have to fulfill vital roles in each impossible mission, that role was often much like Uhura flashing her belly button at Mirror Sulu.

The Avengers did quite well but the role of Cathy Gale was written for a man so maybe it's a shame that didn't and still doesn't happen more often. I think more generally characters should be written as gender neutral and then just flip a coin to determine whether the actor should be male or female. Cathy Gale was most often facing off against male villains as well.

Dr Who took quite some time to feature a female assistant who could hold her own in a crisis (Zoe was smart but I'm not sure that she was that great in a crisis) but many guest characters were quite impressive. Lee Merriweather in Time Tunnel was a scientist but rarely had much agency due to everyone else in the room outranking her. UFO features quite a lot of professional women but there was a gender divide by populating Moonbase with women. Captain Scarlet does something similar by having all male agents and all female pilots.

Trek did feature multiple female characters mixed in with the men, which was a plus but pigeonholed them as subservient and lacking in agency.

It is possible to take Trek and compare it to other shows that gave key female characters a decent crack but there were even more shows that didn't. Even into the seventies and eighties, Smurfette Syndrome was still still common in sci fi and action genres (Star Wars being an extreme example), and the A-Team eventually got rid of the woman altogether. Battlestar Galactica was one of the few shows with multiple women in varying roles but most of those women had vanished by the time they reached Earth. Liana in the Fantastic Journey was pretty cool but the other women vanished after the pilot episode. Blake's 7 had some great female characters, although Sally Knyvette left in season two because she felt that the writers gave all the good lines and stories to Avon and Villa.

Star Trek could have done better but so could a lot of shows.

 

[kkt]

Yes, especially in I Dream of Jeannie, Jeannie is totally subservient. If I remember right, she could complain or pout or cry (and often did) but if Major Nelson gave her a direct order she had to follow it. It didn't matter whether the order was a whim or something very important to both of them. It was totally a male wish fufillment show - Nelson has this great babe who can do magic besides, and both as her master and later as the man who loves her, she'll do anything he asks.

Bewitched was a little better. Samantha did generally obey her husband, but that was a matter of marriage vows and social convention rather than being a sort of slave like Jeannie. If Darrin told her to do something she strongly disagreed with, she might go behind his back or they might discuss it but she wouldn't completely abandon her strong opinion.

TOS was really ahead of its time, in spite of the limited role of women on the Enterprise, at least there were some.

 

[Pauln6]

Yes, especially in I Dream of Jeannie, Jeannie is totally subservient. If I remember right, she could complain or pout or cry (and often did) but if Major Nelson gave her a direct order she had to follow it. It didn't matter whether the order was a whim or something very important to both of them. It was totally a male wish fufillment show - Nelson has this great babe who can do magic besides, and both as her master and later as the man who loves her, she'll do anything he asks.

Bewitched was a little better. Samantha did generally obey her husband, but that was a matter of marriage vows and social convention rather than being a sort of slave like Jeannie. If Darrin told her to do something she strongly disagreed with, she might go behind his back or they might discuss it but she wouldn't completely abandon her strong opinion.

TOS was really ahead of its time, in spite of the limited role of women on the Enterprise, at least there were some.

In Sapphire and Steel, it always seemed to me that Sapphire did most of the work but she had to be managed by a man. In the X-men comics, Jean Grey gets a power up but women can't be left in charge of such power and she goes cray cray.

I think Trek generally led the way on racism but paid only lip service to sexism until Discovery but each show did edge that bit closer to the goal of equality in screen. Quite a few action shows have female leads or co-leads these days. Ensemble shows feature more women and varied ethnicity in the wider cast. Trek certainly helped to get us there.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think Trek generally led the way on racism

They were in the middle of pack.

 

[Pauln6]

They were in the middle of pack.

I think other shows had more prominent black characters. I'm not sure there were other shows that had such racial diversity overall. Both Shatner and Nimoy were Jewish as well.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think other shows had more prominent black characters. I'm not sure there were other shows that had such racial diversity overall. Both Shatner and Nimoy were Jewish as well.

A lot of Jewish actors in Hollywood.

 

[Pauln6]

A lot of Jewish actors in Hollywood.

A lot of non-Jewish actors too. ;-p. In fact, Grace had converted to Judaism as well.

 

[Neopeius]

Actually, when I look back, shows had pros and cons and US shows seemed to do worse than UK shows. The powerful women in I Dream of Jeannie and Bewitched are both shackled to the whims of very irritating, controlling men. Despite featuring numerous female agents, such as Cinnamon, who have to fulfill vital roles in each impossible mission, that role was often much like Uhura flashing her belly button at Mirror Sulu.

Augh, I HATE Bewitched. When you were talking about shows that did it better, my mind immediately leapt to Danger Man, which is VERY respectful of women and usually portrays them as competent and independent. That's 1960 ->

Addams Family is progressive -- subversively so. Burke's Law is not, exactly, but it is refreshingly devoid of condescension toward women.

Lost in Space manages to be offensively chauvinst EVERY episode. Chauvinism is particularly offensive in science fiction because it suggests that such is a concept we deemed valuable enough to keep even into the future.

 

[Neopeius]

They were in the middle of pack.

I'd definitely say TOS was leader of the pack progressive. As someone who has watched a LOT of television these last four years as I've gone along the Galactic Journey, Jane Foster of East Side/West Side (1963-4) stood out strikingly, as does I Spy's Bill Cosby (putting aside what we now know about him). There's a Black actor in Rawhide. Aaaand

That's it, man. in 1965, Asians are more often than not still being played by white people in yellow face ("The Craw!"). Lost in Space, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, ALL the sitcoms, all the other spy shows, all the westerns... pretty much all white people, with non-whites usually being played by "off-whites" (Jews and southern Europeans). I mean, maybe the next season, when Trek comes out, will surprise me, but I doubt it.

It's fashionable in 2020 to say Trek wasn't that enlightened. In many ways it was a product of its time, and yeah, Roddenberry had a host of problematic issues...

But Trek was progressive for the time.

 

[Neopeius]

I guess I should add that TOS was decent, if not terrific, in its portrayal and presentation of women. Certainly compared to Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, Lost in Space, and the various spy shows (essentially, the rest of the sci-fi tv genre) it was far ahead. There were no women on the Seaview, Lost in Space is annoyingly chauvinist, and there ain't no (American) spy shows that feature women -- save for the hapless damsel in every episode of The Man from U.N.C.L.E.

In Trek, women are officers, technicians, lawyers, scientists, helmsmen, gunners... and also the only yeomen, that's a little annoying. But Trek says "women are fundamental to our future and as vital to the success of society and in largely interchangeable fashion as men".

For 1966? That's huge. It's not quite Danger Man, but it's a big deal.

 

[ChallengerHK]

I think Trek generally led the way on racism but paid only lip service to sexism until Discovery

Majel was interviewed for People Magazine; I think it was in the 80s, but I'm vague on that. She was asked about Roddenberry and feminism and she said something on the order of "He's completely committed to feminism...but not in HIS home."

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'd definitely say TOS was leader of the pack progressive. As someone who has watched a LOT of television these last four years as I've gone along the Galactic Journey, Jane Foster of East Side/West Side (1963-4) stood out strikingly, as does I Spy's Bill Cosby (putting aside what we now know about him). There's a Black actor in Rawhide. Aaaand

Kinch and Baker in Hogan's Heroes. Fuji in McHale's Navy. Barney in Mission Impossible. Diahann Carroll as the lead in Julia. Gail FIsher as Peggy Maxwell in Mannix. Lloyd Haines and Denise Nicholas as the leads in Room 222 ( with several African-American supporting characters) Clarence Williams III as Linc in The Mod Squad. Rockne Tarrington as Rao and Manuel Padilla, Jr as Jai in Tarzan. Hari Rhodes as Mike in Daktari. Kam Fong and Zulu in Hawaii 5-0 Henry Darrow and Linda Cristal in the High Chaparral. Don Marshall as Dan in Land of the Giants. That's just off the top of my head for people of color on TV shows during TOS's run.

there ain't no (American) spy shows that feature women

Mission Impossible had Cinnamon Carter (Barbara Bain). The Girl From UNCLE had April Dancer (Stephanie Powers). Get Smart had 99 (Barbara Feldon) Honey West in Honey West (Ann Francis) Though that was more of a PI show, but she had gadgets. Tiger (Arlene Martel) and Marya (Nina Talbot) were reoccurring characters on Hogan's Heroes. Both were Allied spys.

 

[kkt]

Majel was interviewed for People Magazine; I think it was in the 80s, but I'm vague on that. She was asked about Roddenberry and feminism and she said something on the order of "He's completely committed to feminism...but not in HIS home."

Which is still better than not being able to dream about a feminist future even 200 years from now.

Only 30% women, and only one woman in the bridge crew all the time, doesn't sound like much... but it's a lot better than the 0% that you'd get from almost all 1960s shows.