How 'Johnny' can still be 'Sam'

[Temis the Vorta]

Once the longer dialogue scene between the brothers and the step-father was dropped, they relooped the "Hey Sammy!" line so as not to confuse regular audiences who would have assumed Jim was an only child, due to no evidence of an older brother on the Kelvin.

Logical.

The only people who would be confused by "Georgy" would be the people who know George is supposed to be Jimmy's older brother as opposed to a cousin, neighbor, or school friend, eg, us, eg, the same people who will tie themselves into knots explaining why Johnny is Georgy after all.

So there was no point to changing that line.

Who's to say that 'Johnny' wasn't back on Earth being looked after by grandparents because Starfleet regulations don't allow young children on starships,

Considering what happened, why did they allow a pregnant civilian on that starship? Starfleet vessels are warships and have a tendency to be attacked without warning. Having families on board has always been whack.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I though Winona Kirk was an officer. Expecting mothers can stay on duty until a few days from delivery, and for all we know the Kelvin could have been involved in a low-risk mission before being dispatched to investigate the anomaly.

 

[doctorwho 03]

Considering what happened, why did they allow a pregnant civilian on that starship? Starfleet vessels are warships and have a tendency to be attacked without warning. Having families on board has always been whack.

Starfleet vessels are NOT warships. They are supposed to be vessels of exploration.

 

[Aragorn]

Voyager is a vessel of holodeck self-indulgence.

 

[Meredith]

The universe that they went to is Walternate's universe from Fringe.

 

[bryce]

This touches directly on something that I've recently realized myself...

It seems that everyone (including me, until just recently) assume that since the point of divergence of the two universes/timelines/histories is the Naruda's arrival...that both universes had to be exactly the same - indeed, were the very same - right up until that point...and only ever different after that point...

...and many fans complain about inconsistencies (or more often, seeming inconsistencies) that occurred before as horrible "canon violations" and such...because right up 'till Nero, but universes were that same single universe with the exact same past.

HOWEVER...

All through Star Trek - from TOS to First Contact and the TCW - we have seen how, through time travel, the people from the (subjective) "future" alter the subjective "past".

But nuTrek - the JJverse, whatever - would have a different *future* too...with the future crews' going on different adventures - or some adventures - such as trips into the past - perhaps not at all. (But we kinda assume *similar* futures, because it is the Trekverse, and so there is this synchronicity between both universes - as with the "Mirrorverse" - because we want/need it to be there...and write it into stories as a feature of the larger Trek multiverse....)

But since in Star Trek the future events affect (effect?) - even reshape - past events...then there would HAVE to be this "ripple effect", with the Naruda's arrival causing (to borrow a phrase from Doctor Who) "wibbley-wobbly timey-wimey" change *both ways*. (So both universes were still just one - and the very same - up until Nero arrived - but as soon as he and his gang did, the whole timeline was affected both ways!!!

So NOW the nuTrekverse need not have the very same exact past as the TOS-TNG universes.

Say, perhaps in the JJverse, the Enterprise-E crew never has to travel back and help Cocerine with his warp flight...and no older Spock ever had an impact on a younger Spock in Vulcan's past via the - perhaps never encountered - Guardian of Forever...? (Think about it...if it did...nuTrek's Spock would have memories of meeting a future self...that was NOT HIS future self... Assuming TAS is "canon", lol - I mean, we all know at least that episode has to be, right? )

So nuTreks past is as free and open to re-interpretation as it's present/future. Sure, some things - many things - were likely very similar, but not exactly the same...and other events didn't happen at all...

Perhaps no future Sisko replacing a Gabriel Bell...no Voyager jumpstarting the computer revolution.

No Temporal Cold War AT ALL.

Heck, in fact, nuTrek's past (timeline) could be *purer* that the TOS-thru-TNG era timeline...with less intervention!!! (Baring the argument that the "intervention"/"pollution" weren't just examples of pre-destination paradoxes - and how things were "supposed to" - *did* - happen the "first time around"...)

(Is this making any sense...??? I have been sick and insomniac for two days...so probably just rambling a lot...)

 

[bryce]

^Hummm....perhaps Trek's multiverse is a bit like the Whoverse...some events are "fixed points" and have to happen...will always happen (say; someone named Kirk takes the Kobiashi Maru three times...cheats to win, etc...Captians a ship called the Enterprise....) -- while all the other events around them are subject to "flux"..."change"..."being rewritten" (as nonsensical as that would be really...it's part and parcel of the fictional rules of the 'verse...)

 

[Gojira]

I view all of Star Trek, every series, every movie, as one long continual saga from the pilot episode of the Cage up to the most recent movie. Right now in this long saga we have gone back in time to the year 2258 of our story and a Romulan from the future has changed the time-line from what it once was. That is where we are at right now.

I don't see this movie taking place in a new universe it is the same universe we saw in the Cage pilot only now at this point in our saga things will develop differently than we originally saw them develop.

So, from our perspective, the viewers, things did happen as we originally saw them, but from the character's perspective everything is new.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The only people who would be confused by "Georgy" would be the people who know George is supposed to be Jimmy's older brother

In a list of closing credits you'd have two characters named George. Scriptwriters do tend to avoid this kind of thing if they can, unlike in real life where a George might end up working alongside several other Georges in the workplace.

(And in "Newhart": "This is my brother Darryl, and my other brother Darryl.")

 

[Therin of Andor]

^Hummm....perhaps Trek's multiverse is a bit like the Whoverse...some events are "fixed points" and have to happen...will always happen

No matter what he does, or where he goes in his career, Pike ends up confined to a wheelchair.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

The universe that they went to is Walternate's universe from Fringe.

...which would be very nice indeed.

 

[Skywalker]

it wouldn't have been that hard to have just had little Jimmy call him "Sam" or "Sammy" when he drove by. Why they decided not to do that is beyond me.

Once the longer dialogue scene between the brothers and the step-father was dropped, they relooped the "Hey Sammy!" line so as not to confuse regular audiences who would have assumed Jim was an only child, due to no evidence of an older brother on the Kelvin.

Most people don't know that Kirk had an older brother, though, so Jimmy calling some random kid on the street "Sammy" instead of "Johnny" wouldn't have confused anyone. To the uninformed public, he just would have been a random kid named Sammy instead of a random kid named Johnny, while the rest of us would have been like "Hey cool, it's Sam Kirk!" instead of "Who the heck is Johnny?"

 

[Meredith]

The universe that they went to is Walternate's universe from Fringe.

...which would be very nice indeed.

The Big Holes in Iowa could be from the "Event" when Walter stole peter from Walternate, plus there is no SF shipyards, because they were destroyed with California.... The SF they show in the movie is a re-built version 200 miles inland, so they had to move the shipyard to Iowa, lots of useless land there due to the Fringe event.

 

[bryce]

In the Walternate universe, Matt Damon played nuKirk in Star Trek.

(Unfortunately, Michael Bay also directed it...)

But seriously...

I just wanna re-iterate: think about it...if the nuTrek past wasn't changed as well, then nuTrek's past would be full of visitors from an alternate future that was not it's own.

Everyone assumes the two branches diverged like a Y (shape)...but I think it was more like an I that suddenly split into an II shape...

This might explain differences like the Kelvin having a window-viewscreen...rather than the past ST: Enterprise and future Voyager holographic screens...

(But it would NOT explain the stardate system differences...because in old Spock's universe the stardate system was the same as in nuTrek - not and in the TOS-TNGverse - so that would more support the idea that old Spock is not from the TOS universe either, but yet another one...

Then again...maybe there's now been some cross-over or bleed-through between universes...)

Anyway...as long as nuTreks year 2010 had zeppelins, I'm happy with it!

 

[M'Sharak]

(But it would NOT explain the stardate system differences...because in old Spock's universe the stardate system was the same as in nuTrek - not and in the TOS-TNGverse - so that would more support the idea that old Spock is not from the TOS universe either, but yet another one...

Or maybe not.

One of the times the question of stardate systems came up previously, it was suggested by someone that the Jellyfish ship's computer, as part of its automatic monitoring routines, would have checked the local time signal at some point after it emerged from the wormhole. By the time that Young Spock gained access to the ship (and was recognized as Spock through voice print and face recognition analysis) the computer had "reset the ship's clock to local time," so to speak, not only to reflect the temporal offset but to reflect the different stardate system, as well. Thus, it answered Spock's query using the dating system then currently in use by the Federation of the alt-universe.

 

[Therin of Andor]

^ Logical.

 

[Iamnotspock]

it wouldn't have been that hard to have just had little Jimmy call him "Sam" or "Sammy" when he drove by. Why they decided not to do that is beyond me.

Once the longer dialogue scene between the brothers and the step-father was dropped, they relooped the "Hey Sammy!" line so as not to confuse regular audiences who would have assumed Jim was an only child, due to no evidence of an older brother on the Kelvin.

Most people don't know that Kirk had an older brother, though, so Jimmy calling some random kid on the street "Sammy" instead of "Johnny" wouldn't have confused anyone. To the uninformed public, he just would have been a random kid named Sammy instead of a random kid named Johnny, while the rest of us would have been like "Hey cool, it's Sam Kirk!" instead of "Who the heck is Johnny?"

This.

Why they felt the need to change his name from Sam just baffles me.

 

[Devon]

Once the longer dialogue scene between the brothers and the step-father was dropped, they relooped the "Hey Sammy!" line so as not to confuse regular audiences who would have assumed Jim was an only child, due to no evidence of an older brother on the Kelvin.

Most people don't know that Kirk had an older brother, though, so Jimmy calling some random kid on the street "Sammy" instead of "Johnny" wouldn't have confused anyone. To the uninformed public, he just would have been a random kid named Sammy instead of a random kid named Johnny, while the rest of us would have been like "Hey cool, it's Sam Kirk!" instead of "Who the heck is Johnny?"

This.

Why they felt the need to change his name from Sam just baffles me.

As equally... there is no need to keep the name the same either.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Actually, there is, because we already know that Kirk has an older brother. There is no logical reason TO change it.

 

[Broccoli]

Watch as Johnny becomes the main villain in Star Trek XII, because Kirk didn't pick him up when hitchhiking.