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How is downloading not stealing?

I personally have no issues with downloading 1-2 songs from an album, or a couple of episodes of a TV show then going out and buying (or staying in and buying a digital copy) the whole album/series. That's how I've discovered most of the music in my collection and bought series' of shows I wouldnt've been exposed to otherwise. Downloading whole movies/albums/TV shows on the other hand I can't say I support. If you can substitute the stolen content for the real thing and never intend on purchasing the real thing, it's stealing. I wouldn't liken downloading 1-2 songs to stealing even though from a technical standpoint it is, as it usually results in buying a real copy anyway, and if it's something I end up disliking, I probably would've returned the real copy had I bought it in the first place and got my money back/exchanged it for something else.
I have to say I agree. Downloading 1-2 songs would really be no different that recording a song off the radio or taping an episode from TV that you weren't able to see first time around. You still end up owning them without purchasing them.

The difference with TV is that by recording you did buy the product. The product being the advertisers ride along which funds the TV broadcast. Its theft pure and simple, low risk to the thief but theft never the less. In the end all that will happen is that recording artist will not be able to live the life of the rich and famous. They will fall back to the traveling minstrel status. Some will bring in mega crowds but most will play small clubs in competetion with DJs playing stolen music. All will be busking with will play for food signs as they sing for 10 people waiting in line to get into a club, theatre, etc.
 
Is robbing a bank not stealing if you plan to return the cash 2 weeks later? It would be pretty silly sure, but it would still be stealing.

I think you'd have a hard time making that argument in court, and will probably still get convicted for other crimes (intimidation, trespassing, whatever) even if they do accept your argument, but technically yes, imo that's not stealing.
 
Is robbing a bank not stealing if you plan to return the cash 2 weeks later? It would be pretty silly sure, but it would still be stealing.

I think you'd have a hard time making that argument in court, and will probably still get convicted for other crimes (intimidation, trespassing, whatever) even if they do accept your argument, but technically yes, imo that's not stealing.
I'd only agree that it is not stealing if the money was returned with interest paid. It was just a loan! :p
 
Is robbing a bank not stealing if you plan to return the cash 2 weeks later? It would be pretty silly sure, but it would still be stealing.

I think you'd have a hard time making that argument in court, and will probably still get convicted for other crimes (intimidation, trespassing, whatever) even if they do accept your argument, but technically yes, imo that's not stealing.

OK, well we will agree to disagree then.

For the record, I do download films and TV that I have no intention of buying, I recognise what I am doing is morally wrong in some respects, but I also don't believe that I am harming the industry since I spend all that I can afford on music and films anyway. I couldn't spend more money on it if I wanted to and I spend a LOT of money on it.

I do not however DL music, I buy everything that I want without fail, but that is not because I hold musicians in some higher regard than filmmakers, it is simply because I am a hypocrite and will only adhere to certain moral standards when it suits me to.
 
You know what isn't stealing?

The Performers Rights Society charges radios, broadcasters, websites (why Youtube pulled its music videos from the UK), a fee on every broadcast to ensure their members get their royalties. They then charge people who listen to those broadcasts a fee to listen to them (if they aren't for solely personal use, and someone else can overhear, partake of the music).

So, Radio Blah, pays to broadcast a tune. Joe Bloggs, sat in an office somewhere in the UK, turns on a radio, happens to hear the tune, and his bosses have to pay a fee because it is being broadcast in a 'public area'. That isn't theft!

If you ask me, all these media corporations who dictate terms to consumers, to ISPs, to governments are the fucking 21st Century mafia. It's protection money.
 
The difference with TV is that by recording you did buy the product. The product being the advertisers ride along which funds the TV broadcast.

And what about TIVO? Why isn't that illegal then?
There is actually some debate on this.

At least with DVRs, you're still recording the commercials. You don't have to watch them. You're not legally obligated to do so. If you leave the room whenever a commercial comes on, you're not breaking the law. If you watch a program thus recorded, the commercials are still there, even though you might choose to skip over them. Besides, even when you skip an ad, you can't really avoid looking at it, even if it's for a fraction of the time. ;)

As for downloading: Hell yeah, it's stealing. If you download something illegally, what's the result? You have a CD. The other way you could have gotten it is paying for it. Therefore, it's stealing.
 
Downloading is stealing. If the main argument is it doesn't hurt anyone so it can't be stealing...would it be stealing if you went to your mother's house, up to the attic took the TV she isn't using anymore without permission? It's not hurting her, she has another TV. But, most would agree it's stealing.

It's stealing for the simple fact it's not yours. Regardless if it's a physical object or not, it's not yours to take. A novelist is paid by the publisher for the right to print the book, but the novelist is licensing the book, he's not selling the copyright, he's not giving it whole to the publisher. It's the writer's property, intellectual or not.

Is reading a book lent to you by a friend stealing? I don't think so. Your friend bought the book, his COPY he lent to you. If you keep it, it's stealing. Going to the Library isn't stealing, but making a photocopy of the book is.

Just because it "doesn't harm" doesn't make it any less wrong. It's stealing because it's not yours.
 
The difference with TV is that by recording you did buy the product. The product being the advertisers ride along which funds the TV broadcast.

And what about TIVO? Why isn't that illegal then?
There is actually some debate on this.

In the UK, I think you're only supposed to keep material recorded from TV for up to two weeks. After that period, time-shifting becomes copyright infringement. I don't know if there's been a test case about this, but I suspect there are quite a few high court judges, senior policemen, members of parliament etc, never mind joe public, who have violated this rule.
 
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Remember how it was when there were tape decks and VHS recorders? Basically, not a single copyright holder gave a damn about this
Wrong. Link.

Also, See here.
From January through June 1996, the RIAA assisted law enforcement in confiscating 896,594 illegal CDs and 449,733 cassettes. According to the RIAA, bootlegs constituted the bulk of seized CDs accounting for 745,081, compared to less than 19,000 bootlegs confiscated in the first half of 1995.
 
When people illegally download bootlegged videos, they hurt the industry, because they aren't paying for the material they're watching.

Except when they wouldn't have paid for it anyway, which is usually the case.

The law is the system that holds society together, that protects all of our rights and freedoms. We have to respect the law, not treat it as an inconvenience to be subverted at every turn. Making sure the system works, respecting and supporting the system, is the only way to ensure that our own rights will be protected by that same system when we need it. If you don't like the law, petition your congressperson or run for office yourself. Get the law changed. Until you do, though, you follow the law. That's what being a citizen means. There was a time when Americans cared about their duty to their society rather than merely their own self-indulgence.

An unjust law is no law at all. Abject subservience to an intangible and entirely artificial construct such as "the law" is ridiculous. Laws are to be obeyed only insofar as they contribute to individual or collective welfare.
 
Re. Misfit Toy:

In Germany, you are legally entitled to make up to seven copies of things like videos, CDs, DVDs, for your own use or for friends and family (link).

One restriction that has arisen with the dawn of the digital age is that you are not allowed to copy media that uses copy protection technology.

Also, a large amount of the recording I was referring to (though I realize I didn't make this clear at all - I was thinking it but didn't write it) was taping shows from TV or music from the radio.

Another thing to contemplate - and I realize this may be very, very different depending where you lived at the time - is how prominent any of this was in the media. Today, the music and film industry are trying to use huge penalties to attract media attention and frighten people off.
Back in the mid '90s, I can't remember (for what that's worth) anything on a comparable scale taking place. If the industry had no interest in engraining how important all of this is to them in the mind of the people in general at the time, then they're partly paying for what they created in the first place.

Plus I think one major difference, again, is looking at using copies for yourself and distributing them. What your figures mainly seem to relate to is materials confiscated from distributers of copies and fakes, not everyday people. And that's where there's a difference today. They're still going after the distributors, of course, but they're also targetting, well, everyone, really.
 
The recent Wolverine leak has got me thinking about this more lately.

For all the people who download music and movies for free, how is this any different than walking into a store and stealing a CD or DVD? Outside how easy it is, it's exactly the same thing. I suspect most people who do this would look down on and frown upon actually shoplifting, so why is it okay otherwise? Because you're not hurting a retailer, only the major producer? Where's the logic in that?

I'm interested in how people rationalize it.

It's not the same thing.

If you steal something from a store, you take the physical object, making it impossible for the store to sell it to someone else.

If you download someting you make a copy.
 
If a CD gets stolen, you can never, ever sell that particular CD again. Its value in resources and the wholesale price the store paid are lost. Ironically, the music industry doesn't lose out one bit, so they really don't care about this.

Downloading an album from the internet doesn't stop the copyright holder sell one single additional album to other people since it's merely a digital copy.

Now, for its own statistics, the industry naturally assumes that you would have otherwise legally purchase the album had you not had the opportunity to illegally download, hence leading to the IMHO skewed view that downloading is (automatically) the same as stealing a physical object. But that you would have purchased it otherwise is by no means certain.

Assuming, just for the sake of a theoretical discussion, that you download an album you would otherwise never, ever have considered shelling out even a few pence for and you don't pass it on to other people, where, please, is the damage to the industry?

The artist, studio, etc etc and all the people who worked to make that album don't get PAID for the work they did to create while you still get to reap the benefits of their WORK to create it. You are deriving GAIN from their WORK without paying for it. That is theft, plain pure and simple.

Had you stolen the CD, there would be an actual loss.
A pointed out above there is loss. Loss of compensation for their WORK that you STOLE from them. You took without paying. Theft. Pure and simple.

Also, what about somebody who downloads music, a movie or a tv show to check it out or see it before it airs in their own region, but plans on and actually DOES go out and buy the damn thing as soon as possible? Where is the damage to the industry?


Had you stolen a CD or a DVD, there would be an actual loss.
Again, you are getting a gain from their work without compensation. Work for free all the time if you like to have your work given away for nothing.

HOWEVER, there are a few additional things I need to point out. For one, IMHO there is a huge difference between illegally downloading something for yourself or actually distributing contents that is not your own.
No, there is not. Doesn't matter whether you are stealing for yourself or for others, it is still theft.

Distributing basically means directly competing with the copyright holders on the market. You're taking market share from them, hence limiting the amount they will sell. Plus you have an unfair advantage since you're selling for free.
All that is a different kind of theft. tealing for yourelf is still stealing, only a different kind. Doesn't make it anymore acceptable.

That, obviously, leads to a bit of a dilemma. Although I don't download illegally myself, I don't think it's such a big issue, as you can probably tell. I do think distribution is, however. And without illegal distribution, there would be no illegal downloading.
Theft is theft whether you are the end user knowingly downloading stolen material or stealing ti and distrubuting.

I'm appalled at some of the drastic penalty inflicted upon illegal downloaders by the music industry in particular. I'm even more appalled by the fact that some courts have been willing to go along with this.

Punishment always has to be measured by how severe the offence was. And, I'm sorry, but downloading a few songs illegally does not warrant punishments in the thousands of Dollars or Euros or even imprisonment (though I don't know if the latter has ever happened yet).
I'm not. You steal, you pay the price. Simple as that.

The simple truth is this: The times have changed, the industry (or industries) have not or are only slowly doing so. Had they been quicker to see how things were developing, they could have avoided a lot of this, but they felt it was simply easier and probably more fun to rake in the cash the way they always have.

Remember how it was when there were tape decks and VHS recorders? Basically, not a single copyright holder gave a damn about this, and people got used to the fact that you could, legally (except in Australia, I take it) get music, films and TV shows.

From a consumer perspective, what has changed? It's just the matter of obtaining the material, that's it. You go onto the internet instead of firing up your VHS machine.
None of which excuses theft.

It's also very interesting to see how the film industry, for example, is now placing such a premium on the fact that you're not actually, well, not really, anyway, obtaining a DVD that is yours but rather a license that lets you view their film under certain conditions.

Well, if it's a license, why can't I go to the cinema where I pay for the license and showing and then legally download the film since I've paid for the license? Or get the DVD at a cheaper rate, paying only for materials and shipping?
Because you are paying that theater and the film company for THAT viewing only.

I believe models like this are at least being tested (not quite up to date on this), but it's so incredibly late in the making, it hurts.

The obvious reason the industry isn't doing this is since it doesn't get them as much money as selling you the same thing over and over again. But, really, I think you just can't have it both ways.
It's THEIR work and NOT YOURS. They are allowed to control it. Again, if you want to give your rights and work away for free, feel free to do so and no one will stop you.

Look at the amount of people who think nothing of illegally downloading or sharing files with friends (the latter of which existed even before the internet though it was using tapes and recording from LPs, tapes and later CDs).

It's ubiquitous. And it's simply something you have to deal with since, it would almost seem, we have a societal consensus here on what's right or at the very least not wrong.

I don't think criminalization is any help. Or certainly not in the way it's being implemented. What a slap in the face to actually go out and buy a DVD, for example, and then not being able to skip those horrible "you wouldn't steal a car.." videos that come at you EVERY SINGLE TIME you put in your DVD.
All of which is an excuse to rationalize theft. Pure and simple. The lamest of defenses is the "but everyone else is doing it" defense. Just becuase someone else is a thief doent' give you license to be a thief. Guess the lesson of not giving in to peer presure idn't stick with you.

Oh, and then there's nonsense like region coding, DRM, rootkits, and what not. The problem is that, on many levels, you often get the better product if you go with the illegal version.
Another way to rationalize theft. Don't like your choices at the Sony store in Boston well steal from the Sony store in London instead. That's no excuse to steal.
 
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