How is "Caeliar" pronounced?

[iguana_tonante]

Since my first language is Italian, I tend to read it as "Cah-EH-lee-arr". But I understand that in English it would sound probably closer to "KAY-lee-arr".

"SEE-lee-ar" is is just wrong.

 

[Enterprise1701]

"SEE-lee-ar" is is just wrong.

*shrug* Don't ask me how English speakers made up their own distinct pronunciations for Latin-based things. i.e. I hate pronouncing "caelum" as "see-luhm". I prefer to think in interlingual standards, so "cah-ay-loom".

Has any Star Trek novelist ever come up with an explanation for why the woefully inadequate English alphabet and unstandardized English language became the standards for the United Federation of Planets?

 

[Idran]

There is no such thing as a standardized language anyway, so that criticism doesn't even apply. Even when someone tries to set one up, like with French, German, or Mandarin, people ignore it and speak however they want to speak. The only way to keep a language from changing is to make it so no one uses it as an active language, like Latin; otherwise, it will change regardless of any attempts at standardizing it. Even constructed languages like Esperanto end up evolving over time when used as an active language in a community and "breaking" their own "rules" with new constructions and coinings.

Also, what do you mean by "inadequate English alphabet"? Inadequate for what?

 

[Etoile]

Has any Star Trek novelist ever come up with an explanation for why the woefully inadequate English alphabet and unstandardized English language became the standards for the United Federation of Planets?

I'm no novelist, but I can certainly see how it would be. There were four choices, based on the founders of the Federation. We know that Andorian has unpronounceable words and that non-Vulcans regularly mangle the Vulcan language. We don't know anything about the Tellarite language, but the last choice is English, the language of United Earth, so...that's what you get.

Now, why is English the language of United Earth? It's already quite dominant globally in 2014, so I can certainly see that lasting quite a while. It's only been dominant in the past 100 years, but I don't see any other languages taking over anytime soon.

There is no such thing as a standardized language anyway, so that criticism doesn't even apply. Even when someone tries to set one up, like with French, German, or Mandarin, people ignore it and speak however they want to speak. The only way to keep a language from changing is to make it so no one uses it as an active language, like Latin; otherwise, it will change regardless of any attempts at standardizing it. Even constructed languages like Esperanto end up evolving over time when used as an active language in a community and "breaking" their own "rules" with new constructions and coinings.

I have an example: Klingon. So far, as far as I know, most new Klingon words are processed through Marc Okrand (who reportedly gets them from Maltz). Perhaps once Marc is no longer able to offer this service, the language will start to evolve on its own, but I have heard that most purists are still insisting on getting their words from him. (As to the rest of it, I agree with you completely, but I had to be pedantic, since this is TrekBBS - might not use that example elsewhere...)

 

[Kemaiku]

Since my first language is Italian, I tend to read it as "Cah-EH-lee-arr". But I understand that in English it would sound probably closer to "KAY-lee-arr".

"SEE-lee-ar" is is just wrong.

I have never encountered anything started with Cae- that was pronounced KAY in any way. Weird, weird, languages exist over your way though so I'll give you a pass.

 

[Etoile]

I have never encountered anything started with Cae- that was pronounced KAY in any way. Weird, weird, languages exist over your way though so I'll give you a pass.

In American English, "fae" is fay, "brae" is "bray," etc. æ might be a different story, however.

 

[Christopher]

Also, what do you mean by "inadequate English alphabet"? Inadequate for what?

Presumably for representing the wide range of sounds encountered in non-English languages. Although I don't know if there's any single Earth writing system that's any more inclusive in that regard, aside from formal phonetic alphabets.

Has any Star Trek novelist ever come up with an explanation for why the woefully inadequate English alphabet and unstandardized English language became the standards for the United Federation of Planets?

I'm no novelist, but I can certainly see how it would be. There were four choices, based on the founders of the Federation. We know that Andorian has unpronounceable words and that non-Vulcans regularly mangle the Vulcan language. We don't know anything about the Tellarite language, but the last choice is English, the language of United Earth, so...that's what you get.

I once (back in 1987) wrote an essay for myself called "Why Earth English is the Lingua Franca of the Federation," presented as a class paper written in-universe for "Federation History 101." I came to similar conclusions to yours: Vulcan is too complex, formal, and hard to pronounce; Andorian is also complex and flowery due to its musical elements and contains difficult sibilants; and as for Tellarites:

They are such an argumentative race that they have not even agreed on a common tongue for their own home planet. Many Tellarites flatly refuse to learn otehr Tellarite languages. ...Occasionally, speakers of one Tellarite tongue will make a gratuitous chnge in grammar, phonetics, or vocabulary just to annoy others. ...The only advantage, to some people, of Tellarite languages is the high number of insults and profanities they contain.

I'm actually surprised by how well the paper's ideas hold up today, up to a point. I don't feel like transcribing the whole handwritten document, though.

Now, why is English the language of United Earth? It's already quite dominant globally in 2014, so I can certainly see that lasting quite a while. It's only been dominant in the past 100 years, but I don't see any other languages taking over anytime soon.

At least currently, English is the universal language of science, engineering, and spaceflight, which gives it an edge as a common tongue for a spacefaring society. Add to that the fact that the inventors of warp drive and the first intermediaries with the Vulcans were from the United States, and that would do a lot to reinforce the dominance of American English.

I have never encountered anything started with Cae- that was pronounced KAY in any way. Weird, weird, languages exist over your way though so I'll give you a pass.

I thought there must be something, but I checked my dictionary and there wasn't. I'd thought that "Caerphilly" (as in the cheese) was pronounced approximately like "carefully," but apparently it's more like "car-filly" (which spoils the pun possibilities).

Apparently the Roman pronunciation of cae (or at least the way we choose to interpret the pronunciation of Latin in modern times) was roughly like "kai" (rhymes with "pie"), and "kay" is pretty much an American-English approximation of that.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Since my first language is Italian, I tend to read it as "Cah-EH-lee-arr". But I understand that in English it would sound probably closer to "KAY-lee-arr".

"SEE-lee-ar" is is just wrong.

I have never encountered anything started with Cae- that was pronounced KAY in any way. Weird, weird, languages exist over your way though so I'll give you a pass.

Well this guy's name is apparently pronounced KAD-muhn/KAD-mahn (American) KAD-muhn/KAD-mon (British).

Also, what do you mean by "inadequate English alphabet"? Inadequate for what?

Yep. Notwithstanding the fact that the English alphabet doesn't have enough letters/established letter combinations for all its different sounds, I don't think the English alphabet is sufficient for the Federation. Yes, Earth has a history as being at the center of happenings in known space and yes, English is apparently easier to learn than Vulcan or Andorii. But exploration is a Federation ideal. If we consider the diversity of common phonemes among Earth languages as a common phenomenon in known space, then the English alphabet is definitely woefully inadequate for a civilization that welcomes contact with outsiders.

Apparently the Roman pronunciation of cae (or at least the way we choose to interpret the pronunciation of Latin in modern times) was roughly like "kai" (rhymes with "pie"), and "kay" is pretty much an American-English approximation of that.

Yep. I've taken Spanish. That is part of the reason I like originalism with Latin pronunciation.

 

[Idran]

Also, what do you mean by "inadequate English alphabet"? Inadequate for what?

Presumably for representing the wide range of sounds encountered in non-English languages. Although I don't know if there's any single Earth writing system that's any more inclusive in that regard, aside from formal phonetic alphabets.

A quick Google found me this forum post, which has English tied for fourth place for number of phonemes with 49 (when including diphthongs) alongside Dutch, Irish Gaelic, and Romanian out of standard versions of European languages, and beating all the standard versions of major non-European languages they examined except Hindustani.

Not exactly the question asked, but by definition a language's alphabet (if it has one) can express all phonemes in that language's phonology, so it's at least a related fact.

 

[iguana_tonante]

"SEE-lee-ar" is is just wrong.

*shrug* Don't ask me how English speakers made up their own distinct pronunciations for Latin-based things. i.e. I hate pronouncing "caelum" as "see-luhm". I prefer to think in interlingual standards, so "cah-ay-loom".

I'm no linguist, but I guess it could be via pre-modern romance languages. To give you an example, Classical Latin pronounced caelum as kah-eh-loom; late Latin would be celum pronounced as keh-loom; early Italian shifted from the hard k sound to to a softer ch- sound and it was pronounced as cheh-loom. It's not hard to imagine how in English that became chee-loom and then see-loom over time.

Since my first language is Italian, I tend to read it as "Cah-EH-lee-arr". But I understand that in English it would sound probably closer to "KAY-lee-arr".

"SEE-lee-ar" is is just wrong.

I have never encountered anything started with Cae- that was pronounced KAY in any way. Weird, weird, languages exist over your way though so I'll give you a pass.

Apparently the Roman pronunciation of cae (or at least the way we choose to interpret the pronunciation of Latin in modern times) was roughly like "kai" (rhymes with "pie"), and "kay" is pretty much an American-English approximation of that.

As far as I recall from my Classical Latin class, cae in Caesar was pronounced as cah-eh, stress on the ah. Then in different languages different shifts happened: in German it became Kaiser; in Russian Tzar; in Italian Cesare, in English Seesar. The weird thing about English is that the written word didn't evolve with the pronunciation.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

However we're pronouncing it, there's a lot of pleasing symbolism to the name. Given that Caelus is Uranus (I don't believe he ever existed as a separate figure, it's simply the Roman translation), it recalls some interesting and appropriate details from mythology. Caelus Nocturnus, god of the night starry sky (and in some sources Uranus is the son of Nyx, representative of night). We have the association of Caelus opposite Tellus, reflecting how Caeliar are a counterpoint or opposing pole to Humans - and in concert they make quite the couple, with the union of Earth and the gods of night changing the course of galactic history in a very significant way. The birth of the hideous Titans and Cyclopes would be the birth of the Borg as a broken gestalt of Caeliar and Human, a blend of the two races. There's also the idea of Uranus being castrated by his own children (not the Borg, but the inhabitants of the displaced city ship that was catapulted back billions of years. Also, it was Cronus, Time, who performed the deed, so that fits if we're so inclined). Also, while castrated, it was from his cast off testes that Aphrodite was born. The Caeliar surrendered their reproductive capacity - and implicitly their potential for evolution and adaptation - when they converted to a state of near-static perfection, with only their Great Work keeping them even remotely vital; yet they wind up riding out the Erigol disaster converting Hernandez to something other than a "Mere Mortal", and she later revitalizes them in turn, bridging the Human-Caeliar divide to produce the positive mirror to the Borg. We can recall that Hernandez' most important action in the entire trilogy is when she tells the Caeliar (paraphrasing slightly) "I don't know if you can ever get back your ability to reproduce, but it's not too late to learn to share".

I'm not saying any of this is iron-clad or anything, but it's there.

I've also wondered if the apparent location of Erigol/the Azure Nebula in the general direction of Caelum on the Star Charts plays a role in the name, too.

 

[Christopher]

As far as I recall from my Classical Latin class, cae in Caesar was pronounced as cah-eh, stress on the ah.

Yeah, but if you say it fast, it sounds kind of like "kai."

Then in different languages different shifts happened: in German it became Kaiser; in Russian Tzar; in Italian Cesare, in English Seesar. The weird thing about English is that the written word didn't evolve with the pronunciation.

Maybe that's because it didn't really stay in use in English as either a title (like Kaiser or Tzar) or a personal name (like Cesare). It remained a historical artifact associated with Roman emperors, and so it retained its historic spelling.

 

[Etoile]

I once (back in 1987) wrote an essay for myself called "Why Earth English is the Lingua Franca of the Federation," presented as a class paper written in-universe for "Federation History 101." I came to similar conclusions to yours: Vulcan is too complex, formal, and hard to pronounce; Andorian is also complex and flowery due to its musical elements and contains difficult sibilants; and as for Tellarites:


I'm actually surprised by how well the paper's ideas hold up today, up to a point. I don't feel like transcribing the whole handwritten document, though.

I love this, especially the part about Tellarites. Thank you so much for sharing the part you typed in!

 

[iguana_tonante]

As far as I recall from my Classical Latin class, cae in Caesar was pronounced as cah-eh, stress on the ah.

Yeah, but if you say it fast, it sounds kind of like "kai."

Agreed.

Maybe that's because it didn't really stay in use in English as either a title (like Kaiser or Tzar) or a personal name (like Cesare). It remained a historical artifact associated with Roman emperors, and so it retained its historic spelling.

That's certainly possible. But also other Latin words followed the same pattern: changes in pronunciation but not in spelling. You see it all over the place in scientific language (and it gives me a sever headache trying to pronounce words that look like Latin in the English way: my worst enemy is "galactic nuclei"). So maybe it's something about academia (hey, another Latin word!), or the status of Latin as the language of the learned, to keep the spelling unchanged. My only experience is with romance languages like Italian, Spanish, and a bit of French, so it would be interesting to compare English's idiosyncrasies about Latin words with other non-romance languages, like German or Russian.

 

[loghaD]

I have an example: Klingon. So far, as far as I know, most new Klingon words are processed through Marc Okrand (who reportedly gets them from Maltz). Perhaps once Marc is no longer able to offer this service, the language will start to evolve on its own, but I have heard that most purists are still insisting on getting their words from him. (As to the rest of it, I agree with you completely, but I had to be pedantic, since this is TrekBBS - might not use that example elsewhere...)

Marc Okrand has been known to refer to his death as "when Maltz returns home", eliciting many "Awww..."s from listeners.

It's worth noting, though, that even though no Klingon vocabulary is considered official until approved by Marc, and speakers will no doubt still want some method of standardization after "Maltz goes home", even Klingon – or, if you will, the Terran sociolect of Klingon – does evolve through use. Over time, certain turns of phrase become popular. People develop a feel for when to use a particulae word and when to use a synonym, or when to use an optional suffix and when to elid it.

When I look at old Klingon texts, I can't help but notice that while the grammar is all correct, there is something decidedly "English" about the way people expressed themselves (much the same way as somebody with excellent English skills may reveal themselves as foreign-born by certain linguistic tendencies, such as excessive use of the passive voice, saying "one" instead of "you", awkward use of contractions and the like).

Nowadays, the language is used in a way that strikes me as much more alien. Probably in part because the Klingon-speaking community has become more international, but I'd wager it's mostly because we now have a base of experienced speakers who can "think in Klingon", which has allowed for a new sociolect to evolve.

 

[Markonian]

Isn't Korean known as the most onomatopoetic language, able to render Human sounds that aren't even part of formal language (grunting or whistling)?

Apart from that, the pronunciation of Latin words is generally easy in German or Russian, because words are pronounced the way they are written. Only the letter "c" introduces ambiguity, as it can be either "s" or "k". As a German, I'd pronounce Caeliar as [ke:lɪɑ:].

In English, I'm pronouncing nuclei as NOO-klay-ee.

 

[Christopher]

In English, I'm pronouncing nuclei as NOO-klay-ee.

It's usually "noo-klee-eye," just as the singular is "noo-klee-us." Although there are a lot of Americans (including President Carter and at least one of the Presidents Bush) who pronounce "nucleus" and "nuclear" as "nuculus" and "nucular." That's generally considered just wrong, but I wonder if it's a regional thing.


Speaking of odd pronunciations, I've recently discovered that Hulu carries Gerry Anderson's UFO, and last night I watched an episode where a young Stephanie Beacham played a character who was into astronomy. She started talking about the star Spica (generally pronounced "spike-uh" or sometimes "speak-uh") and pronounced it like "spice-uh." She said it formed "an isosceles triangle with Arcturus in Boötes ("boh-oh-tease,": which she pronounced "booties") and Denebola in Leo" (pronouncing it "deh-neh-boo-luh" when it should be "de-neb-uh-luh"). She then mentioned a phrase that sounded like "Ree-thel-uh-noar-ee-un," and it took me a while to parse that she was probably trying to say "Rigel in Orion." I went back and double checked, and she's definitely pronouncing the g with a "th" sound, which I can't make heads or tails of. I wondered if she might be using British pronunciations of the star names, but I checked online pronunciation guides, and apparently Beacham just got them all totally wrong. I'm surprised she pronounced "isosceles" correctly.

 

[Starbreaker]

It's KAY-lee-ar.

Your opinion will do until the experts weigh in.

 

[trash80]

I prefer Kay lee ar, otherwise it sounds like my ex wife's first name..

 

[Enterprise1701]

It's KAY-lee-ar.

Your opinion will do until the experts weigh in.

He wrote the Destiny trilogy. And this is 21st century English-language science fiction. How much better can you get?