How is 20 years old for a ship?

[Tigger]

Per the TMP TNG, the Ambassador Class entered service around 2325, which would have been roughly 40 years after the Excelsior Class did. So that strikes me as a reasonable time-frame between classes. We do know the Klingons and Romulans were both still frisky at the time the Ambassador was being designed and produced, so it does make sense that she's bigger then the Excelsior to offer a more powerful tactical response to both Threat powers.

I still maintain that the Galaxy Class was big because she was meant to operate for years - if not decades - well beyond any Federation support and as such needed that space to hold enough supplies to be totally self-sufficient for that period of time.

 

[Major Chord]

[
As far as durability: I always noticed ST VI torpedo strikes on a shielded Enterprise yeild surface damange to the hull and deflector grid. The torpedo strike on the Excellsior explodes but doesn't mark the hull. That's an improvement.

Well, the Excelsior was only hit once, from what we can see in the movie, and the area she was hit was not visible to us afterward anyway. So, the Klingon torpedo could have left a visible mark on her hull too. I don't think that the "damage" that the torps left were really anything more than scorch marks anyway. I'd assume that early sheilds were like a bullet proof vest. They stop the bullet/energy bolt from causing serious damage to the person/starship, while dissapating and absorbing most of the energy from the blast. Any energy left over is within a range of tolerance that the person/ship can handle, and that leaves some light damage, in the case of human, a bruise, or broken bones, and in the case of a starship, a scorch mark onthe outter hull, or maybe some overloaded/knocked out systems, perhaps in a worst case scenario, some mnor damage to the ship's superstructure. There is still damage, but the person/ship is stil relativly safe and in good condition, and the damage that was caused can be repaired.

However, relating to the topic of this thread, broken bones in a person may heal, but after multiple breaks, you encounter problems like arthreitis, and stiffness and the increased chance that the bone will break again. Same with a starship. After a certain amount of abuse, no matter how much the spaceframe has been repaired, you're going to encounter problems like weakness a higher probablility of repeat damage.

 

[Robert Simmons]

Robert Simmons, you've written enough text that I'm interested in reading it, but until you separate it into some paragraphs, I won't.

Your loss as to what you CHOOSE NOT to read. And snottily speaking down is not condusive for others to be accomodating. But I will be mindful to break up the text body into smaller segments to not dissuade you from reading it since I normally all the time am eager to be accomodating to others.

 

[USS KG5]

Robert Simmons, you've written enough text that I'm interested in reading it, but until you separate it into some paragraphs, I won't.

Your loss as to what you CHOOSE NOT to read. And snottily speaking down is not condusive for others to be accomodating. But I will be mindful to break up the text body into smaller segments to not dissuade you from reading it since I normally all the time am eager to be accomodating to others.

It is easier to read a post formatted correctly into paragraphs. As you wish to be accomodating I'm sure we would all request as politely as possible that you do so, so it is easier for us to read and reply to your opinions.

 

[Nedersong]

If a BB can go through a couple of inches of steel at 18,000mph, how much worse would it be for a ship that can travel hundreds of times faster than that with just grains of dust?

 

[USS KG5]

If a BB can go through a couple of inches of steel at 18,000mph, how much worse would it be for a ship that can travel hundreds of times faster than that with just grains of dust?

Well, hence the navigational deflector...

 

[RAMA]

Considering ships usually last 50 a century or more in modern navy that seemed liek a screwup.

There are two ways to look at this:

The technology and associated maintenance procedures could make useful ship lifetimes much greater, or they could also even out based on the rigors of space travel.

The rate of technological advancement in 23rd-24th century society changes so fast that they need to update starships faster than ever.

 

[Timo]

Indeed, ship lifetimes are far from constant or consistently progressing in the history of seafaring. Sailing ship lifetime depended a lot on the type of timber that was used on them, and many factors affected the type: a seafaring nation might steadily start losing its supply of good-quality oak, for example, and its ships would thus get shorter- and shorter-lived. In the 19th century, it had already become practical and affordable to build ships out of northern species like fir, even though such ships only had a fraction of the lifespan of an oak-keeled vessel...

Then came the metal-hulled ships. But those, too, suffered something of a dip in lifespan when it became preferable to use early welding techniques instead of riveting: the welded ships fell apart relatively quickly, moreso because welding was combined with the use of minimum-thickness plating with the overall goal of saving weight.

Currently, it is practical to build ships with half a century of expected hull lifetime. But it's also a severe liability, as it prevents shipping companies from moving to properly double-hulled, eco-friendly tankers, makes it difficult for the Royal Navy to jump from its excellent Cold War sub-hunting Type 23 frigates to the sort of multimission power projection ships it needs today, and keeps assorted deathtraps in use on shipping lines that have no reason to try and afford modern gear.

Starfleet might thrice curse the idiots who designed the Mirandas with a century of lifetime, as this makes it more affordable to refit the old and nearly useless tubs than to procure proper replacement ships...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gagarin]

Starfleet might thrice curse the idiots who designed the Mirandas with a century of lifetime, as this makes it more affordable to refit the old and nearly useless tubs than to procure proper replacement ships...

Timo Saloniemi

Hahaha - and you can bet that Starfleet doesn't use pictures of the Mirandas on their PR and recruitment halo-vid-posters! =)

 

[USS KG5]

Starfleet might thrice curse the idiots who designed the Mirandas with a century of lifetime, as this makes it more affordable to refit the old and nearly useless tubs than to procure proper replacement ships...

Timo Saloniemi

Hahaha - and you can bet that Starfleet doesn't use pictures of the Mirandas on their PR and recruitment halo-vid-posters! =)

I figure during the war the Mirandas were used virtually as less powerful Defiant class ships, available in larger numbers. With a small refit to bring their weapons up to a higher standard they can stick 50 men on as a crew and send them into battle. The crew can happily abandon ship when heavily damaged as they know another mothballed Miranda will wait for them at home!

 

[Major Chord]

^ Except that a lot of the Mirandas we see during the War die such spactacularly firey and greusome deaths that I doubt the crew would be returning home.

I'm sure that most of the Mirandas in the fleet formations were there for lack of any other ship. They were probably already relagated to rear-line roles by the time the war hit, and were used as combat vessels to bulk up the fleet. They're still usefull as combat ships, because they do still have weapons. So, they could still destroy enemy ships, but they stand a much higher chance of being severely damaged or destroyed themselves.

 

[Philo]

^ I'd rather believe that Starfleet is liberally minded enough not subscribe to the tactical use of cannon fodder where human life is concerned. Is it possible that those Miranda's are actually unmanned? Using a reworked version of the M5 computer, even.

There's certainly some tactical advantage to backing up the big, sophisticated guns with obsolete and dispensible ships whose sole purpose would be to draw enemy fire and sacrifice themselves against line. Essentially, unmanned kamikazes.

Robert Simmons, you've written enough text that I'm interested in reading it, but until you separate it into some paragraphs, I won't.

Your loss as to what you CHOOSE NOT to read. And snottily speaking down is not condusive for others to be accomodating. But I will be mindful to break up the text body into smaller segments to not dissuade you from reading it since I normally all the time am eager to be accomodating to others.

It wasn't meant to be snotty, sorry. I was just frustrated because I was genuinely interested in reading what you'd obviously put some time and thought into.

 

[Tigger]

^ I'd rather believe that Starfleet is liberally minded enough not subscribe to the tactical use of cannon fodder where human life is concerned. Is it possible that those Miranda's are actually unmanned? Using a reworked version of the M5 computer, even.

That is actually an interesting idea...

 

[Major Chord]

^ Not exactly cannon fodder per say. I mean, the ships could still put up a fight, and still protect themselves to some degree, but compared to some of the newer ships, they can probably take much less of a beating. Then again, against the dominion's polaron weapons, almost all Federation ships are defenseless.

But still, being assigned to a Miranda and to a lesser extent, an Excelsior, has to mean a higher chance of death. They're still good fighting ships, but they are just more likely to be taken out of commission sooner.

 

[Unicron]

It makes you wonder about what the optimum design life might be for a given Trek ship, seeing how they have more advanced production methods. It would seem that in some other series, such as Star Wars and BattleTech, it's not uncommon for some designs to remain in service for decades (centuries sometimes in the latter series) and still be viable, with refits and upgrades.

The budget question is an interesting one - Starfleets budget would have been slashed following the collapse of the Klingon threat. The Constellation-class Starcruiser would be a cheaper addition to the fleet than an Excellsior - overworked and underpowered, and perhaps wouldnt' have been subject to treaty that asked for a limited number of 'cruiser' ships.

Interestingly enough, the FASA Trek RPG suggested that there was a minor controversy over which class should be used for the 1701-B. One group wanted a Constellation in keeping with the Enterprise's traditional role as an explorer, while the other group wanted an Excelsior (a battleship in the FASAverse) because of increasing tensions with the Klingons and Romulans, and as a more visible symbol of Starfleet's military power. Ultimately, those tensions contributed to the Excelsior group winning out, and the B being commissioned as an Excelsior class. Could certainly fit into the limited canon on this ship.

 

[USS KG5]

^ Except that a lot of the Mirandas we see during the War die such spactacularly firey and greusome deaths that I doubt the crew would be returning home.

Well true, but many more doubtless were just crippled - and presumably even a small surviving airtight area could shelter some of the crew. That would be a big ship for fifty people - it is possible the Sitak and Majestic lost mostly just old crew quarters still with 23rd century fittings!

 

[Major Chord]

^ You have a bit of a point there. Though, even if the crew survives, I doubt that they'd be in much of an immediate fighting shape. I'm sure burns, radiation exposure and other serious injuries were quite common.

 

[SoM]

^ You have a bit of a point there. Though, even if the crew survives, I doubt that they'd be in much of an immediate fighting shape. I'm sure burns, radiation exposure and other serious injuries were quite common.

Depends - if the saucer gets a big hole in it, that doesn't necessarily hurt anyone in the stardrive section and vice-versa.

 

[Major Chord]

^ I'm just giving one of the worst case scenarios ( the other one would be death).

 

[USS KG5]

^ I'm just giving one of the worst case scenarios ( the other one would be death).

Well hopefully Starfleet were being relatively sensible during the war -of course they suffered major casualties but the numbers quoted (1000 odd dead in one week for example) are actually quite low.

I imagine this means their more disposable ships like the Mirandas were sparsely crewed and there were no large sections of the mothballed wonders full of hapless crew.