How have your opinions changed over time?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by JamesRye, Feb 23, 2022.

  1. Damian

    Damian Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I found the same thing. When it came out I loved it. Definitely was a top 3 at the time (of course at that time there were just 6 films). And it sort of stayed there for several years, though First Contact eventually took it's place at #3 for me.

    But it hasn't aged well for me. It's become a middle of the road film IMO. I don't hate it, it has it's good moments and the ending was a perfect send off for the original crew. That alone made up for some of the flaws. And I'll admit, as caricatured as Chang was, I can't help but like him. Probably because Plummer is such a great actor, and, well the patch nailed to his head was very Klingon :lol:. But I have more and more trouble buying into the outright bigotry of the rest of the crew towards Klingons. The conspiracy part, I can probably buy, and the novels even depicted a back story where Section 31 was involved with Cartwright being a part of that by that time. But the Enterprise crew, save for Kirk? No. Kirk was the only one I can buy that with, and it's one carryover element from TFF because even there he was harboring a grudge (and I can see that festering for the 7 or 8 years between both films).

    I thought they were decent enough. Insurrection was definitely the weakest for me, and if the special effects for TFF were ever 'fixed' I can replace that with Insurrection as my #13 movie. I didn't hate Insurrection, I can still watch it today from time to time. It was competently made, had some great photography, and the special effects, while not awe inspiring, were at least in line with most of the other films. The story just didn't take a lot of risks. They wanted to do what TVH did after TWOK and TSFS, have something light-hearted and maybe a bit comical after the headier FC. But I just kept thinking to myself the Dominion War was still raging at that point in time on DS9. Why was all this even going on, and the Enterprise was originally supposed to be going on an archaeological dig. Um, during a war to save the Alpha Quadrant? I always thought they missed an opportunity there. I realize they didn't want to make a movie that required the general public to be familiar with what was going on DS9 at the time. But I still think there could have been ways to incorporate Insurrection into the war somehow without requiring a familiarity with DS9. And I mean, come on, who didn't want to see the Enterprise-E engaged in a battle with a Jem'Hadar warship at least once? ;)

    And of course we're one of the 10 people that liked Nemesis :lol:. It might be sacrilegious to say but I think over the years TUC has fallen a place or two behind Nemesis among my favorites.
     
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  2. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    My anticipation for TMP in 1979 was moderately tempered upon seeing it. I ended up seeing it about three times over some months (when films could actually remain on the big screen for months on end). There were a lot of things I liked about it, a few things I was meh about and little I actually disliked. There are a few things I still wish had been done differently, but overall I think more highly of TMP now then I did initially. I think the film has aged better than any of those that followed. This is Roddenberry’s Trek writ large on the big screen and it feels like an evolution of TOS. I am so looking forward to the upgraded Director’s Edition.

    TWOK followed the opposite trajectory. When I first saw it I found it energetic and a lot of fun. Except the uniforms. Whatever ambivalence I had over aspects of the TMP uniforms I found the TWOK outfits ridiculous. It didn’t look like Starfleet. They were not believable everyday service wear. Nonetheless the film felt like a big time adventure. It added one thing TMP could have used more of: energy. But time has not been kind to TWOK as repeated viewings have revealed more and more things that disappoint me.

    I used to feel TMP and TWOK were two sides of the same coin: TMP was the intelligence of Star Trek and TWOK was the enthusiasm. I still sorta feel that way, but TWOK underlines a lot of what I’ve grown to dislike about the successive films as a whole. TWOK established a template that most every Trek film since has tried to emulate, and it’s really disappointing.

    I enjoyed each of the classic Trek films when I first saw them. But for me TMP is the only one that has gotten better with age while the rest haven’t to the point where they’re barely on my radar anymore when I think of classic Star Trek.

    My opinion of the TNG and JJtrek films haven’t changed at all. They’re still collosal wastes of film.
     
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  3. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    TMP - used to find it boring, save for the visuals, but has aged to be appreciated not just as the only Trek film that's close to being hard sci-fi, but also took the good bits from some iffy TOS episodes and did the same thing better

    TWOK - loved it, later found it slow, but later after that rethought my rethink and there is nothing wrong with the pacing.

    TSFS - never wavered. Loaded with plot holes, the themes of the characters and movie keep this going rock solid. It's also the last movie for a while that takes itself seriously...

    TVH - loved it in 1986, but the comedy's more often aimed at the audience than with the plot, and in either cause has often dated badly - and feels more like a cheesy sitcom with Trek characters sprinkled on top. Sadly, the humor would be mandated forevermore... But the serious bits were pretty solid, and the setup of the threat was palpable at the start. But even back then, I managed to notice the number of illegal acts chopped down from 9 to 6.

    TFF - thought it okay at the time, not impressed but didn't hate it apart from a few jokes. Later rewatches have me appreciating the attempt to revive the 60s show tone, the second half where the movie finally takes itself seriously, loathed the comedy element, and read up more on the making-of and realized Shatner was given unfair hurdles. It's amazing the film is watchable at all. (The fact a lot of the cast liked him as a director is also underscored...)

    TUC - bold and risky in some scenes, the only big difference is that I (as had everyone in the audience) roared with laughter uproariously the "universal translator is out" bit in 1991 but later it dawned on me that it's nothing more than a joke at the bridge crew's expense that shouldn't have worked at all.

    GEN - for the first time in a long time, the humor felt like it was working with the flow of the story and not aimed at the audience for cheap jokes. I loved it that I saw it three times in the theater. Since then? It's still the best TNG movie as it's the only one that fulfills Q's promise at the end of "All Good Things...", but the plot holes and other problems derail it and Soran needed to be a more proper villain. Those deleted scenes were a good start. Oh yeah, Kirk's original death felt more powerful than what was replaced because a test audience complained.

    FC - style over substance at the time, I've gone back and forth about the addition of the Borg Queen. (Amazingly, the ST franchise never did with Borg Queens what Bee Queens do - when a new Queen flies in, the existing one has to fight. It's almost like when a Klingon disagrees with a commander and their process is to fight to the death for a dramatic thrill, but with the number of actresses coming in to play the Queen they missed out on an opportunity.) But on each rewatch, admittedly fewer nowadays, it feels like another 90s party flick with the cast scribbled back in. Oh, more jokes aimed at the camera too. Ugh.

    INS - liked it better, despite taking a concept used as a petty joke in the previous movie ("to hell with our orders" shtick) and trying to give it gravitas. Especially when the movie wiggles way too hard after first saying it's all of Starfleet but later just Admiral Numnutz and a select few... the movie was just full of it. The Jerry Springer issue with the Baku and Sona wasn't anywhere as epic as it was supposed to have been, and the Gilbert/Sullivan song was cringe back then too. Yeah, for the TNG movies the opinion has gone down for the most part...

    NEM - In the theater, not many were in there and most people clapped when the name "Kirk" was said. That's a bad sign when this a TNG film. I quickly passed on it for a long time. In a later rewatch, I warmed to some of it -- but too many ingredients put into this stew still soured it. Remove one or two, make it more plausible and without the magic maguffins and how Shinzon and a small number of Reman rebels could make the most super-dee-duper ship with nobody on Romulus noticing any unusual subspatial radiational gravimetric treknobabble...and the ramming scene may never be surpassed. The hokey contrivance with B4 combined with ripping off TWOK plot points and TSFS dialogue still sour, though.

    ST09 - haven't attempted to try a rewatch.

    STID - tempted to, but for the bits I liked there were twice as many that grated. The double-double cross was still awesome, as was John before his "revelation". And there's no way the ending will ever look better now than in 2013.

    STB - still the best one by far. Was pleasantly surprised on first viewing. It felt like STID
    done right". The two times I saw it, the first had me confused as to who was slicing the ship with ease (it's revealed later, of course) but the second viewing made the attack feel much more eventful. If I see it again, I do wonder what mindset might change...
     
  4. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't think my opinion of the movies has changed that much, except for TMP.

    Around 2000: a movie that is clearly stretched around insufficient story material- simply not enough is happening in this movie. Though I have to admit there is a certain grandeur to it. Rating: 6.5
    2022: This movie isn't so much about the story as such, it's primarily a celebration of the human adventure that's only just beginning, it's intended to make the viewer enjoy those long-drawn out scenes and shots of the ship, the gradual re-assembly of the crew, and so on. Rating 8.5

    For the rest, I've always had a liking for GEN, FC,TUC and TWOK. Doesn't mean these movies are perfect. Three of them are action-oriented, even though I find Picard's sudden transformation from a philosopher to a hard action hero in FC jarring. I like GEN for its atmosphere (but not for the meaningless Kirk death).
    Not sure what to think of TVH, TFF - they have both likeable and less likeable elements. The environments Our Heroes are placed in are enjoyable and (sometimes) atmospheric, and the idea of searching for God is intriguing, but ultimately the overall stories of these two movies are not that strong.
    I have less liking for TSFS, INS, NEM - these movies simply fail to capture and keep my attention. Where I'm still inclined to think that where TSFS isn't bad, but simply doesn't cater to my tastes, INS and NEM are actually (slightly) substandard.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2022
  5. Lucky

    Lucky Commander Red Shirt

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    My opinions on The Motion Picture (thanks to the Director's Edition) has improved my love of the movie. I've also come to appreciate The Search for Spock more than I did when I was younger.
     
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  6. McCoy's Disco Collar

    McCoy's Disco Collar Commander Red Shirt

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    I liked TSFS a lot more when I was younger. I think it was the Excelsior, which remains my favorite starship design and inspired me to think that Starfleet was on the precipice of a golden age. The universe just seemed larger to me for it. But in time, the flaws have come to the surface, and it's harder for me to look beyond them. Now it's only a must-watch to bridge TWOK and TVH, two of the classics.

    Speaking of TWOK and TVH: fantastic. Better with age. Films that reached for something different, something great and firmly grasped it.

    Like many, I have much more appreciation for TMP than I ever have before. I can appreciate that the starship fly-by is really only too long because it was the first time we'd seen it on the big screen and Wise wanted to milk that for all its worth. I used to think that the lack of a Big Bad was a bug, now I appreciate that it's a feature. I now look at TMP as a slightly-flawed classic.

    TUH continues to drop in my estimation. There were things I once liked about it, but now I can't get past the idiot plot, the painfully ham-fisted allegory, and the fact that every single character acts out of character just because the script needed them to. What a loathsome film it is.

    FC has also dropped; used to love it.

    Every film not mentioned, including the Kelvin films: so disinteresting to me that they might as well not exist. Seen them all before, but don't have any desire to see them again.
     
  7. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    My take hasn't changed -

    TMP - still my favourite Trek Movie - serious epic scifi
    TWOK - fantastic, near perfect.
    TUC - also excellent
    TVH - great fun
    TSFS - good
    TFF - dreadful plot, crap sfx, dire move. With great bookends.

    I don't like the Next Gen movies which did a fantastic show a great disservice. First Contact is probably the best one (if overrated) but I prefer Nemesis.

    JJ's ST 2009 was just about OK, and they got steadily worse.

    I could happily do without everything post TSFS on my list, but would keep TFF purely for the camping scenes.
     
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  8. McCoy's Disco Collar

    McCoy's Disco Collar Commander Red Shirt

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    The camping scenes were indeed delightful. Shame that the same care wasn't extended to the rest of the script.
     
  9. publiusr

    publiusr Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Loud as a Whisper, Masks and Tin Man recaptured what TMP was trying to do in a less stilted form.

    Though it is THE MOTION PICTURE…maybe it would have worked better as a mini series. Kirk and Nogura. Spock’s travails. To me…it wasn’t long enough to tell the whole tale.
     
  10. McCoy's Disco Collar

    McCoy's Disco Collar Commander Red Shirt

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    I dunno about that.

    I think the backstory is unnecessary. Admiral Nogura is ultimately unnecessary to the plot.

    We could take more time in letting the V'Ger story spool out, but I don't really need to know what McCoy was doing after he resigned from Starfleet.
     
  11. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No major changes on my part. Nos. 6 and 7 may have traded places. I know many will raise a Spock-eyebrow at TVH being so far down the list, but I never loved this foray the way most people do.

    1. TWOK
    2. TUC
    3. TSFS
    4. First Contact
    5. Generations
    6. TMP
    7. TVH

    8. INS
    9. NEM
    10. TFF

    I don't consider any of the JJ-Trek movies worthy of being rated- I've never re-watched a single one of them even once. Pure garbage. Opinions vary, I know.
     
  12. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You still placed TVH much higher on the list than I do. It's always dead last. Star Trek's all out comedies are only enjoyable for as long as the jokes are funny. And jokes get stale after the second or third pass for me. I love the film until it hits the 23rd century and then it's just a slog (Catherine Hicks is grating). Once they get back, it's great. But I don't usually go with the pack anyway.

    I agree that opinions vary, but for me a film has to be a special level of worthless to be "pure garbage." I'm talking "I Spit On Your Grave (remake)" level. Star Trek films are, for me, at worst "not enjoyable." They all - even my least favorite - have something to enjoy. Even if I don't want to sit through the entire 2 hours, a scene, some music, a performance, some effects make it better than "pure garbage."
     
  13. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I still like TMP & TWOK just as much as when I 1st saw them, the latter more than the former.

    I like TOS 3-6 much more than I did when I 1st saw them.

    I dislike TNG's entire film franchise more than when I 1st saw them, more so the further in they got.

    & I'm just as indifferent to the Kelvin movies as I've always been, but the cast has grown on me more
     
  14. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Interesting you mentioned that, contrast it to "Into Darkness" where Zoe Saldana was treated as one of the Big 3; the director, JJ Abrams, didn't have the Communications Officers carry a "Language Book" to speak with the Klingons. TUC script and movie screams disrespect at the expense of the characters, from my view of TOS I assumed Uhura would know her job well and could speak Klingon fluently like you know, a language expert, but that scene... with the books... WTF. Something tells me Ms. Saldana would've been offended if the Great Nicholas Meyer attempted that BS with her character.
     
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  15. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, let's be a little fair. TOS Uhura wasn't presented as a linguistic genius. She was the communications officer and could do wonders with the mechanics of the console. But she never once demonstrated any incredible linguistic skill. The only other language she knew was Swahili. She wasn't an idiot by any means, but neither was she a genius (Kirk had to scold her to move the scan from outside to inside in Journey to Babel). She was more of a switchboard operator than a linguist. Maybe she SHOULD have been a linguist, but all of that was after the fact in books or comics.

    However, Nicky Meyer dumbed down some of the crew dramatically. Chekov was a complete simpleton in TUC, Uhura had those books and Rand... oy vey. "Do we report this, sir?" That's an idiot line merely to set up Sulu's response, which gets the requisite chuckle.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
  16. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I always took "communications officer" to be a position far more about expertise in communications equipment than in linguistics. I don't expect an engineer at a radio station to be able to speak multiple languages.
     
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  17. McCoy's Disco Collar

    McCoy's Disco Collar Commander Red Shirt

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    Indeed.

    The 2009 Uhura was more an update of Hoshi Sato than what we had seen from Uhura to that point.
     
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  18. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I expect Uhura to go beyond speaking as if she never spoke the Klingon language before, while reading a book, making her a complete fool of herself. You may not expect an engineer at a radio station to be able to speak a boatload of linguistics but it sure would be a wonderful revelation if the engineer could? Making the characters look good is the sprinkles on the ice cream for me; gaining and discovering another facet of a legendary character opens the door in my mind as I leave the theatre and is something I can talk about positively with my friends ala "Into Darkness" than the bullsh*t done in VI.

    To play this in another way, have Uhura working her magic to devise a rhythmic tone to duplicate a Klingon language fooling the Klingon border guards. Something to which would create some suspense whether Klingons would figure it out it is the universal translator was used? There's many options to input for this character than a cheap laugh at the expense of the character.
     
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  19. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    I personally adore Uhura being updated in the Kelvinverse, folks. I also like the idea of her prime universe counterpart being something of a whiz at being sure the universal translator isn’t recognized.