How far is Vulcan?

[Christopher]

In "Where No Man Has Gone Before," the word "rim" is never used. It's referred to as the "galaxy edge" once, and otherwise they just speak of leaving the galaxy or being out of the galaxy. "By Any Other Name" uses "rim" once (by Rojan, who isn't a native speaker of English) and "edge" once (by Kirk). "Is There In Truth No Beauty?" uses neither word, referring only to the barrier and to being outside the galaxy.

So the location of the barrier is referred to as the edge of the galaxy twice and the rim only once, and more generally is treated simply as the divider between the inside and outside of the galaxy. Not to mention that "rim," like most words, has more than one definition. It can be used to refer to any edge or boundary.

Besides, it's pointless to fixate on vocabulary over practical sense. We know for a fact that the galaxy is 3-dimensional, that the nearest face of the disk is dozens of times closer than the nearest "rim." If the Enterprise had been assigned to travel past the edge of the galaxy, why in the hell would they travel 25-30 times farther than they had to? They'd have to be idiots to do it that way.

 

[Ithekro]

Plus to most direct path to Andromeda is through the edge of the Milky Way.

 

[Christopher]

Plus to most direct path to Andromeda is through the edge of the Milky Way.

Not quite. Look at this sky map -- the Andromeda Galaxy (in the top center of the left-hand circle) is in Andromeda, of course, while the Milky Way (our view of the galactic disk from inside it) passes through the adjoining Cassiopeia. It looks pretty close, but judging from my Celestia simulator, which I can't show you, the angular separation is about 20-25 degrees. My rough estimate with a ruler and protractor shows that if we assume a thickness of 1000 light years for the galactic stellar disk, then a ship heading outward from Earth at a 20 to 25-degree angle from the ecliptic would reach the edge in about 15-1600 light years. A whole lot less than the 25,000 ly to the outermost rim.

Besides, Andromeda is only relevant to "By Any Other Name." There's no reason it would have anything to do with "Where No Man Has Gone Before."

 

[Ithekro]

I noted "edge", not rim.

 

[Mytran]

As this "galaxy collision plan" shows, Andromeda is currently in such a position that exiting using the rim of the Milky Way would be a very long way round indeed!

Exiting through the "top" of our galaxy would be considerably shorter, and match the most probable area of exploration in WNMHGB

 

[Christopher]

I noted "edge", not rim.

Well, then I don't see your point. The path to anywhere outside the galaxy must pass through some portion of its boundary, by definition.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

What what about the most direct path to Andromeda from the unnamed planet in "By Any Other Name"?

If that planet was already sufficiently close to the outer rim of the Milky Way, then, when going on the straight line from that planet to Andromeda, perhaps whatever part of the edge of the galaxy through which they left could fairly be called the rim, in the sense of being close enough to the outer edge of the disk for that nomenclature to apply (according to the universal translator).

In that case, the same energy barrier might surround the galaxy, perhaps even all the way around, and the Enterprise visited the same energy barrier at different places in different episodes.

 

[Timo]

I think I raised that point in the same post, actually!

Oops, right! Sorry about that.

Speeds in the later Trek films seem to be significantly faster than those in 1 and 2: In those first films, it took several days to complete journeys.

One should always keep in mind that warp works exponentially: when ships are in a hurry, they don't merely travel 15% faster than usually (like in the style of naval warfare familiar from Earth history), but easily dozens or hundreds of times faster. In ST2, there was no Earth-to-Regula hurry initially; in ST3, there was. In ST:TMP, there was no Earth-to-Vulcan hurry, nor Vulcan-to-Earth hurry in ST4, but ships significantly slower than that might have made the trip in significantly shorter time than that in STXI simply because they were in a hurry.

As for the rim thing, in "Where No Man" our heroes simply want to defy the Barrier, to see whether this can be done; they have no chosen destination beyond this. That they try out their defiance at the very same location where the Valiant did it might hint at the Barrier being a smallish, localized phenomenon - but if so, why defy it when going around would allow for exploration beyond? It rather seems the Barrier is everywhere but sheer concerns of distance and travel time limit human access to a very small part of it. In which case it must be "above" or "below" the galactic disk, or otherwise very close to Earth (say, wrapping around the galaxy one arm at a time).

Kirk being unable to reach more than one spot of the Barrier would be consistent with the scope of later Trek adventures and the ENT factoids. That this one and the same spot is where they encounter interesting stuff like the Valiant or the Kelvans is merely statistical inevitability, nothing more: every segment of the phenomenon is full of wonders, but our heroes miss out on most of them, what with being local hillbillies with no awareness of the wider world.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nveid Jo'rek]

I've read that Vulcan was located at the star 40 Eridani A (Omicron 2 Eridani A), some 16 and a quarter light years from the Sol system.
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Vulcan_system

 

[Nveid Jo'rek]

Yes, I already found others have already mentioned that...

 

[Six of Twelve]

Several years ago, I read that Vulcan was supposed to be in the Epsilon Eridani system. I cannot recall exactly where I read this, however.

 

[Nveid Jo'rek]

I remember seeing commentary on that, but it was mostly just heresay. Looking for official citations, I came across this:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Vulcan_system
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/40_Eridani_A
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_(Star_Trek)#Homeworld
It says that Gene Roddenberry himself adopted the location (citation: Sky & Telescope, July 1991).

 

[Ronald Held]

I am surprised that this thread is so long.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Several years ago, I read that Vulcan was supposed to be in the Epsilon Eridani system. I cannot recall exactly where I read this, however.

According to MB, you probably read that in either the old Spaceflight Chronology, or in Margaret Wander Bonanno's Strangers From the Sky.

 

[Nveid Jo'rek]

According to MB, you probably read that in either the old Spaceflight Chronology, or in Margaret Wander Bonanno's Strangers From the Sky.

MB, as in "Memory-Beta?"

 

[Thot Tnak]

Interesting discussion. But hasn't the Cochrane Unit Warp Scale been adjusted several times? Different classes of Federation ships have different max WFs. Enterprise-D was 9.8, Voyager at 9.975! Enterprise could only exceed 9.6 for hours while Voyager could sustain for days or 2 weeks!!! The "Star Trek Encyclopedia Third Ed" established that max standard warp for Federation ships was 9.2 with 10.0 a theoretical impossible limit. The Bird of Prey is typically just a warp 8 ship, but achieved 9.8 using the "slingshot" effect in STIV. D'deridex Warbirds that use AQS as powerplant can sustain 9.6 and achieve 9.8 with resulting damage. Similarly, Breen Chel Grett Class can sustain 9.6 and are resistant to warp stress limitations due to updated models incorporating integrated organic structures with flexibility and self-repair. Hey, just my 2 cents.

 

[Thot Tnak]

Interesting discussion. But hasn't the Cochrane Unit Warp Scale been adjusted several times? Different classes of Federation ships have different max WFs. Enterprise-D was 9.8, Voyager at 9.975! Enterprise could only exceed 9.6 for hours while Voyager could sustain for days or 2 weeks!!! The "Star Trek Encyclopedia Third Ed" established that max standard warp for Federation ships was 9.2 with 10.0 a theoretical impossible limit. The Bird of Prey is typically just a warp 8 ship, but achieved 9.8 using the "slingshot" effect in STIV. D'deridex Warbirds that use AQS as powerplant can sustain 9.6 and achieve 9.8 with resulting damage. Similarly, Breen Chel Grett Class can sustain 9.6 and are resistant to warp stress limitations due to updated models incorporating integrated organic structures with flexibility and self-repair. Hey, just my 2 cents.

Also, Karla Fire's vessel from the antimatter universe could achieve W36 for the record!!!

 

[Avro Arrow]

MB, as in "Memory-Beta?"

Yes. According to this, both those sources reference Epsilon Eridani as Vulcan's home star.

 

[Sgt_G]

For what it's worth, here's how I explained it away in a story I wrote (posted here on Trek-BBS):

As they entered the auxiliary control center, the first thing that Tillman notices was the speed of the passing planetary objects. There’s a gas giant -- blink -- it’s gone. Senior Chief Quartermaster Roger Guzman was putting all of his twenty-three years of experience to good use. He handled the ship like a finely tune sports car. The Callahan-class police cutter looked ungainly, but it was actually one of the most nimble ships ever built. About the only thing that could outmaneuver her was an Orion Privateer-class convoy raider.

“Holy Mother of God,” Ensign Tillman exclaimed in awe. “How fast are we going?”

“We’re maxed out,” Lieutenant Commander Isenberg answered. “Warp-factor nine point two five. As is the Gendarme.”

Tillman stared at the screen. “I’ve never been above warp eight, except in an express boat. They wouldn’t let us access the view screen.”

Lieutenant Zychowski did a little mental math. “This is, what, eight hundred times the speed of light?”

“Oh no,” Chief Guzman quipped, “closer to five-hundred thousand; about a light-year every minute or so.”

“Keep your eyes on the road, if you don’t mind,” Isenberg requested.

“I don’t understand,” the Marine complained, “nine cubed is seven hundred twenty-nine. Isn’t speed equal to the warp-factor cubed?”

“Yes and no, sir,” Tillman explained. “See, most people think of the warp field as being spherical,” she used her hands to demonstrate, “but in reality it’s shaped more like a football,” she stretched the imaginary ball in her hands.

“A football? Oh, you mean like a rugby ball.”

“American football, not soccer, you pagan,” Gunny Thorns said with a sarcastic grin, “I’ll get you to worship at the altar of Saint Lombardi yet.”

“Bite your tongue, woman,” he answered back, equally in jest.

Ensign Tillman stood frozen for a moment, her eyes darting back and forth between the two Marines. That was the first time she saw either of them act like normal human beings. “Right. So, at any rate, as the ship’s speed increases, the warp field becomes more elongated. That’s why an express boat is shaped like a ... rugby ball. The hull fits perfectly into the warp field all the way up to warp-factor ten, which is on the high side of a million times faster than light speed.

“There’s more to the math than speed equals cee times double-you cubed. There’s another variable that kicks in once warp-factor exceeds three point one four one five nine, or pi. It’s there at lower speeds, but is so close to zero,” she paused, “Or is it one?” she asked herself, ashamed that she forgot such a basic formula, “Whatever. It cancels out. Even at warp five, this variably is still fairly small. But it grows exponentially, so at warp eight or warp nine,” she pointed to the blur on the screen. “Right now, we’re going about ten times faster than we were at warp seven.”

“And burning fuel about thirty times faster, too,” Chief Engineer Robert Campbell’s voice come over the intercom. “Sir, you might want to think about doing a scoop and go.”

 

[Nveid Jo'rek]

Yes. According to this, both those sources reference Epsilon Eridani as Vulcan's home star.

But that was before it was canonized as 40 Eridani A.