How Does Sybok's Meld Actually Work?

[Ssosmcin]

So how does Sybok’s approach actually work? I get the idea what we are molded by our life experiences and adversity. But, really, I don’t harbor some life altering “secret pain” that I can’t live with. And really. Why would everyone on the ship have one? I would accept it easier if it really was a form of brainwashing (stated and not implied). Instead of Kirk’s impassioned “I NEED MY PAIN!” I would have appreciated more of…

“Go ahead, convince me. I don’t hide a secret pain. I’ve faced all of my pain.” (indicating Spock and McCoy) “We’ve faced them. These men are my friends. My family. I’m an open book to them. Take your best shot.”

Sybok, knowing he can’t break that strength of will, smiles.

And having it legitimate brainwashing would explain why taking away pain would make all of these people want to follow Sybok – at the expense of betraying their own captain. Because, I dunno, if someone did that for me, I’d probably be all “hey thanks man” and then that’s it. Not “wow, you took away my pain so sure, I’ll go find God with you.” Maybe Sybok would have made a new friend, but not a conspirator. Somehow he must have convinced them his cause was worth betrayal. And you can’t do that just by easing pain.

This is the most telling exchange:

KIRK: The only reality I see is that I'm a prisoner on my own ship. What is this ...power that you have to control the minds of my crew?
SYBOK: I don't control minds. ...I free them.
McCOY: How?
SYBOK: By making you face your pain and draw strength from it. Once that's done, fear cannot stop you.
McCOY: It sounds like ...brainwashing to me.
SYBOK: Your pain is the deepest of all.

Sybok actually dodges McCoy's comment. Brainwashing is the only way this whole thing works for me. But they seem to not want us to make that conclusion. Drawing strength from the pain doesn't make you wanna go find God...does it?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Yes, it was brainwashing.

 

[FormerLurker]

^ This. Except that I got the impression that Sybok was himself a true believer, and didn't realize that that was what he was doing. It took seeing the imprisoned entity face to face and realizing what it actually was that finally got him to see the truth. That, to me, is why he decided to make the sacrifice he did, as much in penance as to give Our Heroes the opportunity to escape.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Remember that Sybok was based upon 1980s televangelists. Some of them may have been true believers as well.

 

[XCV330]

Remember that Sybok was based upon 1980s televangelists. Some of them may have been true believers as well.

And where the American televangelists got it from gets even weirder.

It all goes back to a watchmaker and hypnotist named Phineas Quimby who should have had an award for the 19th Century Man With The Most New Englandy Name Ever Come Up With In New England. Phineas believed that he cured his tuberculosis with the power of his own mind. Later on he caught a touring french mesmerist who taught him hypnotism. He was probably influenced somewhat by Swedenborg but it seems at least that a lot of his ideas were his own.

At some point Phineas ditched the hypnotism shows in favor of healing people by the power of the mind. However, key point, he never claimed he had divine power or channeled God or anything like that, at least not very overtly.

But one of his followers did, Mary Baker Eddy, who would go on to even greater fame in her own right and essentially found her own religion, Christian Science, at least partly based on faith healing. There was apparently a rift between his followers after his death and Eddy. They didn't want to claim Eddy, and she did not want to be claimed, and so whatever other accusations were thrown against her, being Quimby's acolyte was not one of them. Mark Twain probably would have used it, if he'd thought it would stick.

Quimby seemed to actually believe what he was doing, and though he wrote notes down, never founded a religion or published a book. One of his children kept his writings and his book was published finally long after he died. His influence led directly to the New Thought Movement, which is still around today.

But the flip side of the coin was that his traveling healing shows lead later to Christian faith healers plodding the circuits with revival style tent experiences, and some of those went on to t.v. where they remain embedded today.

But yeah, from a guy named Phineas Quimby. History is odd.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

It is, indeed. But Shatner did get his idea for Sybok from watching the televangelists... Probably Jim and Tammy Faye...

 

[fireproof78]

It's brainwashing and I imagine Sybok is basically blocking out the secret pain and claiming the person "cured."

 

[DonIago]

The part that always frustrated me is that I don't see the causal relationship between the two things that happen. Sybok "helps" people with their pain, and then they're fanatically(?) loyal to him, but what does one have to do with the other? I think the novelization did a better job with this, but especially with regards to Our Heroes, I think it does the depiction of both them and Sybok a disservice that all it takes is someone giving them a counseling session for them to change loyalties.

I'd really like to think that Sybok really did believe he was helping and that, if he was brainwashing people, then he didn't realize that was what was occurring. I'd rather he was a true believer than a con artist.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Yes, it was brainwashing.

And unfortunately, makes all of the secondary characters appear weak minded and not very sophisticated. The journey should have been about the sophistication of the task, as well as the sophistication of comprehending a Supreme being, and also the sophistication of the movies antagonist. I could see why Sean Connery bow out of that movie and went with something which had a similar opus, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

 

[Pub Goff]

Star Trek 5 is like a flawed cheeseburger. Cheap bun, crappy cheese, average sauce, iceberg lettuce. But the patty is prime, grade A, grass-fed beef. Sybok's approach to dealing with trauma is the beef.
Experiences & adversity are two things, residual trauma is another. Sybok was so intelligent that he realized how important residual trauma is to humans. He also knew that people, due to fear, will go to great lengths to avoid facing their old wounds/residual trauma/"pain". That's why he used such a direct approach. He wouldn't let the other person escape. It was painful in the short term, but liberating in the long term.
Kirk, with his ego, didn't use the lines you proposed, because he was afraid to face his trauma. That's why he came up with an excuse: "I need my pain." If Kirk had said your lines, Sybok would have gladly obliged and liberated Kirk.

Sybok "dodged" McCoy's defense ("brainwashing") in order to force him to face the residual trauma of his father's death. The "reliving scene" is Hollywood bad ketchup. You don't draw strength from residual trauma, you draw strength from processing it, and letting the wounds heal, and then the pain isn't a burden any more. People who have gone through trauma work can vouch for this.

Sybok's cultish leadership, revolutionary tactics, and unwavering belief in finding "God" are Hollywood bad cheese. Although, it could very well be that Sybok, for all his intelligence/wisdom, hadn't completely dealt with his own wounds. That's why he still had an ego; the function of ego is to maintain our false sense of self- to shield us from the reality of our trauma. Ironically, it may have been Sybok who had the deepest pain of all. And his distraction was focusing on other people's pain. Plus "finding God." Though, Sybok had a pretty good track record. He did in fact seem to de-traumatize people. He was right about the Great Barrier being penetrable. He was half right about Sha Ka Ree. And he had the character to realize his mistake & sacrifice himself to let the others escape.
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So how does Sybok’s approach actually work? I get the idea what we are molded by our life experiences and adversity. But, really, I don’t harbor some life altering “secret pain” that I can’t live with. And really. Why would everyone on the ship have one? I would accept it easier if it really was a form of brainwashing (stated and not implied). Instead of Kirk’s impassioned “I NEED MY PAIN!” I would have appreciated more of…

“Go ahead, convince me. I don’t hide a secret pain. I’ve faced all of my pain.” (indicating Spock and McCoy) “We’ve faced them. These men are my friends. My family. I’m an open book to them. Take your best shot.”

Sybok, knowing he can’t break that strength of will, smiles.

And having it legitimate brainwashing would explain why taking away pain would make all of these people want to follow Sybok – at the expense of betraying their own captain. Because, I dunno, if someone did that for me, I’d probably be all “hey thanks man” and then that’s it. Not “wow, you took away my pain so sure, I’ll go find God with you.” Maybe Sybok would have made a new friend, but not a conspirator. Somehow he must have convinced them his cause was worth betrayal. And you can’t do that just by easing pain.

This is the most telling exchange:

KIRK: The only reality I see is that I'm a prisoner on my own ship. What is this ...power that you have to control the minds of my crew?
SYBOK: I don't control minds. ...I free them.
McCOY: How?
SYBOK: By making you face your pain and draw strength from it. Once that's done, fear cannot stop you.
McCOY: It sounds like ...brainwashing to me.
SYBOK: Your pain is the deepest of all.

Sybok actually dodges McCoy's comment. Brainwashing is the only way this whole thing works for me. But they seem to not want us to make that conclusion. Drawing strength from the pain doesn't make you wanna go find God...does it?

 

[Pub Goff]

Define "brainwashing."

Yes, it was brainwashing.

 

[somebuddyX]

I wonder if it's like he took something away and perhaps unconsciously used his powers to do some brainwashing at the same time. It seems like it's inconsistent in how works on someone depending on whether they're main or secondary/guest cast, unless there was more to it offscreen and he'd spent more time with Uhura and Chekov and Sulu. It's kinda funny but I read Shatner wanted both McCoy and Spock to be completely swayed and objected, but if that had happened it would have at least made his powers consistent.

 

[Dr. K.R. Kollman hon.]

Relief from pain can be a feeling of being unchained.
It 'could' cause someone to become loyal to the person who did it for them.
Just like it does for an animal.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Guys, this thread’s expiration date was over two years ago. If you wish to continue this discussion, please do so in another thread.