How do you want the regeneration limit dealt with?

[Thestral]

like in the Stolen Earth.

Where they missed their greatest opportunity to really make Doctor Who history with Tennant's departure. How damn exciting was it when Ten was hit by the Dalek and then started to regenerate. I thought, HOLY SHIT THEY DID IT! They kept it a secret! This is one of the greatest moments in Who history! I take back everything I've ever said about RTD! He's brilliant! THIS is what makes Doctor Who great! The surprise! The shock! The lack of knowing whether you will lose the lead actor at ANY moment! This is how I've always wanted to see it done! One Doctor dies, and the new one has to finish the mission. Awesome!!




.......wait....he's...shooting the hand........oh. Oh. I see. The whole thing was a pointless lie. Nevermind. Nothing has changed....

How very deliciously Whedeonesque. I'd have loved it and hated it all at the same time.

 

[Sci]

like in the Stolen Earth.

Where they missed their greatest opportunity to really make Doctor Who history with Tennant's departure. How damn exciting was it when Ten was hit by the Dalek and then started to regenerate. I thought, HOLY SHIT THEY DID IT! They kept it a secret! This is one of the greatest moments in Who history! I take back everything I've ever said about RTD! He's brilliant! THIS is what makes Doctor Who great! The surprise! The shock! The lack of knowing whether you will lose the lead actor at ANY moment! This is how I've always wanted to see it done! One Doctor dies, and the new one has to finish the mission. Awesome!!




.......wait....he's...shooting the hand........oh. Oh. I see. The whole thing was a pointless lie. Nevermind. Nothing has changed....

How very deliciously Whedeonesque. I'd have loved it and hated it all at the same time.

I would have hated it. If the Doctor is going to go, he should go after the bad guys have been defeated and the world saved (like with Nine in "The Parting of the Ways"). To have the Doctor regenerate in the middle of a story is to rob the audience of their chance to say goodbye to that regeneration, to undercut the character's resolution.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Would it even be possible to have a departure kept secret?

 

[captcalhoun]

at this time, with this level of media interest? no.

 

[The]

Where they missed their greatest opportunity to really make Doctor Who history with Tennant's departure. How damn exciting was it when Ten was hit by the Dalek and then started to regenerate. I thought, HOLY SHIT THEY DID IT! They kept it a secret! This is one of the greatest moments in Who history! I take back everything I've ever said about RTD! He's brilliant! THIS is what makes Doctor Who great! The surprise! The shock! The lack of knowing whether you will lose the lead actor at ANY moment! This is how I've always wanted to see it done! One Doctor dies, and the new one has to finish the mission. Awesome!!




.......wait....he's...shooting the hand........oh. Oh. I see. The whole thing was a pointless lie. Nevermind. Nothing has changed....

How very deliciously Whedeonesque. I'd have loved it and hated it all at the same time.

I would have hated it. If the Doctor is going to go, he should go after the bad guys have been defeated and the world saved (like with Nine in "The Parting of the Ways"). To have the Doctor regenerate in the middle of a story is to rob the audience of their chance to say goodbye to that regeneration, to undercut the character's resolution.

Disagreed. Regeneration is a tool of his species. For him to face a threat that was so prominent and dangerous (as S4's finale suggests) that he could be hurt trying to stop it, regeneration would not only create a dramatic shock for the narrative, but would save his life and allow him to stop the bad guys (as the genetic tool of regen was created to allow).

The character's "resolution" is simply to stop the bad guys and save his friends. Nothing Eleven could not have accomplished with as much ease as Ten. Perhaps even better, as he wouldn't be sidelined or distracted by the "domestic" emotions of Ten.

The audience being "robbed" of a chance to say goodbye is, simply, a nicety of the RTD era. Most any other final episode for a Doctor wasn't an hour-and-a-half of in-love, circle-jerking. It was an episode where the Doctor faced an impossible threat, won the fight, but in doing so needed to change or die. Never has a story been so perfectly designed to do this than Stolen Earth.

So, given that, we could have had (theoretically) Smith come out of the regen, Rose, Donna, and Jack help him acclimate and to go on and take on Davros and the Daleks.

Sure, Rose wouldn't have gotten her sex doll (unless, some of the regen energy was siphoned off accidentally into the hand). So, either she would have gotten Smith and Donna dropping her off with Tennant-Clone (thus giving all the viewers who are only interested in a Rose/Doctor love story their "goodbye"), or she would have just gone back and realized she and The Doctor can never be together.

No matter how you slice it, having Ten regenerate in the heat of battle as such would have lent a massive amount of needed dramatic impact and a slice of perfection to top off RTD's Era.

Instead, we got a cop-out Mary-Sue-fulfillment ending, and Ten's end squeezed of any dramatic or emotional impact by having it stretched across numerous and pointless "specials".

But, oh well. Can't change history. Got to take all the bad writing with the good, I guess...

 

[Kelso]

(thus giving all the viewers who are only interested in a Rose/Doctor love story their "goodbye")

I agree! I've been saying for years that this should have happened!

That would have been the perfect way to end Doctor Who.

 

[The]

^You deliberately missed the point in an effort to stir up trouble. Thus, I relegate you to the conversation partner.....of dooom....

 

[Sci]

The audience being "robbed" of a chance to say goodbye is, simply, a nicety of the RTD era. Most any other final episode for a Doctor wasn't an hour-and-a-half of in-love, circle-jerking. It was an episode where the Doctor faced an impossible threat, won the fight, but in doing so needed to change or die.

Almost every regeneration story ended with the Doctor regenerating after the main plot had been resolved. One regenerated into Two after the Cybermen were thwarted; Two regenerated into Three after appealing to the Time Lords to help stop the War Chief; Three regenerated into Four after defeating the Spiders; Four regenerated into Five after saving the Universe from the Master; Five regenerates into Six after escaping from Androzani and saving Peri; and of course Nine regenerates into Ten after saving Rose from the Time Vortex energy after she defeated the Daleks.

The only exceptions to this were the regenerations of Six into Seven, which of course only occurred at the beginning of Time and the Rani because Colin Baker had been fired, and Seven into Eight in the TV movie, which even Sylvester McCoy has said was a creative mistake -- they should have started with Paul McGann, he said, and then have done a flashback for McCoy.

In other words, even if it was very brief, all but two of those regeneration stories gave the audience a chance to pause and say goodbye to that particular incarnation of the Doctor after the main plot was resolved. You may not care for the amount of time RTD took to say goodbye in "The End of Time, Part Two," but that doesn't mean that the general principle of "resolve the main plot, then say goodbye to the Doctor before he regenerates" is a bad one. It's a principle that damn near every producer before RTD followed.

 

[The]

^Which proves nothing except that it's been done umpteen times, and would thus have added the cherry on RTD's breaking-the-mold era. Tennant gets hit running to Rose (his love for her being this incarnation's obvious weakness), gets dragged into the TARDIS as we already saw. Says his quick farewell to Rose and Co. (with the irony not lost on anyone that she's come all this way just to lose the incarnation she was after), and BOOM! Matt Smith says 'what up!', we shift past the regen-madness with ease (ala' Pat Troughton, Smith's fave Doc), and it's off to finish Davros and save the multiverse. It's impossible to see any of that as a bad thing, IMHO.

 

[Sci]

^Which proves nothing except that it's been done umpteen times, and would thus have added the cherry on RTD's breaking-the-mold era.

Well, no, it proves that you were wrong to claim that saying goodbye to the Doctor is just a nicety of the RTD era. Saying goodbye to the Doctor has been done plenty of times and is not an RTD-exclusive thing.

Tennant gets hit running to Rose (his love for her being this incarnation's obvious weakness), gets dragged into the TARDIS as we already saw. Says his quick farewell to Rose and Co. (with the irony not lost on anyone that she's come all this way just to lose the incarnation she was after), and BOOM! Matt Smith says 'what up!', we shift past the regen-madness with ease (ala' Pat Troughton, Smith's fave Doc), and it's off to finish Davros and save the multiverse. It's impossible to see any of that as a bad thing, IMHO.

Yes, you've made it very clear that you would have enjoyed that. You've repeated this several times.

I've also made it clear that I would not have enjoyed that, because I view the ability of the audience to say goodbye to a character they love as important to the story's structure. The only other point that I would make is that in structuring something like this, a writer should in particular consider the reaction of child audiences, since it is they for whom Doctor Who is produced, first and foremost. I suspect that such a sudden regeneration, with no chance to pause from the plot and say goodbye to the Doctor, would have been very upsetting for a great many children in the audience. Like it or not, children loved David Tennant's Doctor, and I think they deserved a chance to say goodbye to him.

Beyond this point, though, the argument becomes purely subjective.

 

[The]

^Which proves nothing except that it's been done umpteen times, and would thus have added the cherry on RTD's breaking-the-mold era.

Well, no, it proves that you were wrong to claim that saying goodbye to the Doctor is just a nicety of the RTD era. Saying goodbye to the Doctor has been done plenty of times and is not an RTD-exclusive thing.

No, my point was that every Doctor before him got, at max, a quick companion flashback before regenerating. Ten's the only one that took a twenty-minute vanity tour, for no apparent reason. Thus, that's specific to RTD.

I've also made it clear that I would not have enjoyed that, because I view the ability of the audience to say goodbye to a character they love as important to the story's structure. The only other point that I would make is that in structuring something like this, a writer should in particular consider the reaction of child audiences, since it is they for whom Doctor Who is produced, first and foremost. I suspect that such a sudden regeneration, with no chance to pause from the plot and say goodbye to the Doctor, would have been very upsetting for a great many children in the audience. Like it or not, children loved David Tennant's Doctor, and I think they deserved a chance to say goodbye to him.

Nah. Doctor Who is a family show. It should no more cater to children than Torchwood. SJA is built for that. Who should remain an inventive, progressive force in science fiction and televisual drama. Life doesn't always allow you to say goodbye or have closure. Neither should fiction always give you exactly what you think you want. Ten departing in the middle of a story, where RTD had naturally taken the plot, would simply be the next great level this show could achieve. The ability to shock, stun, or even surprise the jaded children of the next generation. Everything else is, dramatically, clockwork-boring. A simple a-to-b-to-c-step narrative.

Beyond this point, though, the argument becomes purely subjective.

Naturally.

 

[Sci]

^Which proves nothing except that it's been done umpteen times, and would thus have added the cherry on RTD's breaking-the-mold era.

Well, no, it proves that you were wrong to claim that saying goodbye to the Doctor is just a nicety of the RTD era. Saying goodbye to the Doctor has been done plenty of times and is not an RTD-exclusive thing.

No, my point was that every Doctor before him got, at max, a quick companion flashback before regenerating. Ten's the only one that took a twenty-minute vanity tour, for no apparent reason. Thus, that's specific to RTD.

You did not specify that. You spoke generally about the basic concept of having the Doctor regenerate after the main plot has been resolved so that the audience can say goodbye to that incarnation; you did not specify that you were referring to one particular execution of that general concept.

I've also made it clear that I would not have enjoyed that, because I view the ability of the audience to say goodbye to a character they love as important to the story's structure. The only other point that I would make is that in structuring something like this, a writer should in particular consider the reaction of child audiences, since it is they for whom Doctor Who is produced, first and foremost. I suspect that such a sudden regeneration, with no chance to pause from the plot and say goodbye to the Doctor, would have been very upsetting for a great many children in the audience. Like it or not, children loved David Tennant's Doctor, and I think they deserved a chance to say goodbye to him.

Nah. Doctor Who is a family show.

At numerous points in The Writer's Tale, RTD disagrees, saying that he's writing for the eight-year-olds out there first and foremost. Steven Moffat has said the same thing in numerous interviews. Whether or not you think Doctor Who should be for children first and foremost does not change the fact that that is the primary audience intended by its creators.

 

[Thestral]

^Which proves nothing except that it's been done umpteen times, and would thus have added the cherry on RTD's breaking-the-mold era. Tennant gets hit running to Rose (his love for her being this incarnation's obvious weakness), gets dragged into the TARDIS as we already saw. Says his quick farewell to Rose and Co. (with the irony not lost on anyone that she's come all this way just to lose the incarnation she was after), and BOOM! Matt Smith says 'what up!', we shift past the regen-madness with ease (ala' Pat Troughton, Smith's fave Doc), and it's off to finish Davros and save the multiverse. It's impossible to see any of that as a bad thing, IMHO.

With the quick farewell, it works great. I've said it before, but I'll say it again - very Whedon-esque. A bit savage and shocking, but that's not always a bad thing. No need to go all Winifred Burkle or Wash on us, of course.

The only other point that I would make is that in structuring something like this, a writer should in particular consider the reaction of child audiences, since it is they for whom Doctor Who is produced, first and foremost. I suspect that such a sudden regeneration, with no chance to pause from the plot and say goodbye to the Doctor, would have been very upsetting for a great many children in the audience. Like it or not, children loved David Tennant's Doctor, and I think they deserved a chance to say goodbye to him.

There's a lesson to be learned here, and there's no reason to assume children can't deal with that. I mean, this is the show that gave us the Weeping Angels and the Doctor vs. the Devil.

Nah. Doctor Who is a family show. It should no more cater to children than Torchwood. SJA is built for that.

Um, er, Doctor Who should definitely cater more to children than Torchwood - Who is a family show, Torchwood (from what I hear) is an adult-oriented show.

At numerous points in The Writer's Tale, RTD disagrees, saying that he's writing for the eight-year-olds out there first and foremost. Steven Moffat has said the same thing in numerous interviews. Whether or not you think Doctor Who should be for children first and foremost does not change the fact that that is the primary audience intended by its creators.

So. Who's Sarah Jane Adventures for then, 6-year olds?

Besides which, considering everything else this show throws at them, I say they could've handled it. It can't possibly have been worse than the gloomy oppressiveness of Turn Left.

 

[Sci]

The only other point that I would make is that in structuring something like this, a writer should in particular consider the reaction of child audiences, since it is they for whom Doctor Who is produced, first and foremost. I suspect that such a sudden regeneration, with no chance to pause from the plot and say goodbye to the Doctor, would have been very upsetting for a great many children in the audience. Like it or not, children loved David Tennant's Doctor, and I think they deserved a chance to say goodbye to him.

There's a lesson to be learned here, and there's no reason to assume children can't deal with that. I mean, this is the show that gave us the Weeping Angels and the Doctor vs. the Devil.

At numerous points in The Writer's Tale, RTD disagrees, saying that he's writing for the eight-year-olds out there first and foremost. Steven Moffat has said the same thing in numerous interviews. Whether or not you think Doctor Who should be for children first and foremost does not change the fact that that is the primary audience intended by its creators.

So. Who's Sarah Jane Adventures for then, 6-year olds?

If I'm understanding their logic properly, the distinction is that Sarah Jane is intended exclusively for kids, whereas Doctor Who is intended primarily for kids. One is not designed with adults in mind at all, the other is designed to entertain adults secondarily.

Besides which, considering everything else this show throws at them, I say they could've handled it. It can't possibly have been worse than the gloomy oppressiveness of Turn Left.

I don't think the issue is, "Can they handle it?" Sure, they could "handle it." They could "handle" lots of things; that doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea to do them.

The issue is, "Why do that to them?" This is obviously subjective, but I'd argue that for most people, adult or child, it's not dramatically satisfying to have the main character of a beloved television series suddenly disappear with no warning and no sense of "saying goodbye." If it's not dramatically satisfying for most people, and it's something that would upset your primary audience a great deal because of their greater emotional immaturity, I don't think there's a particularly good reason to do it.