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How do you think Time's Arrow started the first time?

IronMaiden

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
Not sure if i'm saying this right but, how do you think it started the first time?

It would of had to happen for them to find Data's head there.

Sorry if i'm being a big noob with this.
 
Yeah, it's a self perpetuating time loop. Star Trek history has a few of those (IMO) but this is the most explicit example
 
It isn't difficult to get this loop started "for the first time". All it takes is for the Enterprise, with Data aboard, to visit Devidia II for whatever reason.

Once there, the heroes are sure to pick up the mysterious timewaves, will investigate, and will travel to the past. And once there, they will run into events that sever Data's head "for the first time" and thus ensure that the ship will go to Devidia II on the next loop.

Now, how unlikely an event is a visit to Devidia II? We know the E-D goes places, and might well end up on that one eventually, even if at the time of the eventual loop the location is not on their schedule yet (or they would have mentioned it). And it doesn't much matter when she goes there, because the aliens will supposedly keep on sucking life out of the San Francisco of Mark Twain for a long, long time. The ship could "originally" have visited the planet in 2382 or 2364 (all it requires is for the ship to be intact and for Data to be aboard, and many realities will cater for those, skipping events like ST:Generations or Data's gruesome death in the hands of Pakleds in 2366 or whatever), and the events of the loop would then cause things to settle down to 2368 instead.

That is, whatever happens in the past creates a timeline where the cavern is excavated in 2368 - regardless of what happened in the future. Now how unlikely is that? If you don't want to believe in the events of the 19th century dictating the archaeological or construction minutiae half a thousand years later, you can say that the date of the excavation actually wobbles a little. Again all it takes is for the excavation to happen within Data's career aboard the Enterprise.

Now, the interesting question is whether the loop now is eternal, that is, whether Data's head will always be found and necessarily be sent back to the past to be found again. It all happened once or twice, but did it happen a zillion times, and will it happen again?

Timo Saloniemi
 
I justify self-causing paradoxes this way.

Any universe that does not cause itself is unstable. It doesn't become unstable when the time loop occurs, it was always unstable. Therefore, all universes that we are able to experience must be stable and self-causing. Because if knowledge of the future would cause anybody to do anything that would not cause the future, the universe would be unstable, and we would never experience the timeline.

Hey, what if the only reason time travel will never be invented is that all universes where time travel will be invented were already destroyed by paradoxes?
 
I agree. What we saw was the first time. If you viewed the timeline linearly then in the 1800s Data would have appeared and then lost his head in the mine. Then fast forward to the future and Data goes back in time. Data was always present in the 1800s because that is what happened.

This is also why the idea of a temporal cold war is rubbish. Because any action by any time traveler from all the bajillion years in the future into any point in their past will have all already occurred. History, at any given point, will have already included the actions of future time travelers. A Temporal Cold War would be resolved before it even started.

Another way to look at it. We already know that any attempt to travel back in time and kill Hitler as a youth will fail. It doesn't matter whether time traveling assassins come from 50, 5000, and/or 5 million years in the future. We know they will fail because any actions they take will already be part of our history; and in that history Hitler lived until adulthood.

You can't change the past, and you cant change the future.

So anyway. Data's head was already there the first time, which is the time that we saw.
 
How about this for an example ?

1. The cave is discovered/opened.

2. The excavation team experiences problems with the "regulators" and/or the "phase conditioners", investigates; it turns out the cave itself is causing the interference, and triolic energy/residue shows up.

3. Also, it is determined that the cave hasn't been accessed between the 19th century and the time of discovery.

4. Using the conventional knowledge that triolic energy doesn't occur on earth naturally in whatever era (well, at least not in the 19th and 24th century, the script states that as a fact), the team suspects alien influence. OR they just wish to rule that possibility out before going public with a groundbreaking discovery that triolic energy does occur naturally on earth, after all. OR, they make it known and another team of experts arrive to verify their findings and still proceed with step 5.

5. So they start to research the cave painstakingly, every square millimeter of it, including the rocks.

6. The "microscopic ciliated life form LB one zero four four five" is discovered in a sample.

7. As this specific life form can be traced to one planet and one planet only -Devidia 2- a request is sent to Starfleet to send some team there for investigation on the spot.

8. The ship that just happens to be relatively close to Devidia 2 (and have some time to spare!), is the ENT-D <Surprise! Who'd seen that coming?>.

9. They go investigate, trace alien involvement, set up the same force field we see them set up in the ep, and they are thrown back into the past.

<Start cycle as seen in TNG>
 
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I agree. What we saw was the first time. If you viewed the timeline linearly then in the 1800s Data would have appeared and then lost his head in the mine. Then fast forward to the future and Data goes back in time. Data was always present in the 1800s because that is what happened.

This is also why the idea of a temporal cold war is rubbish. Because any action by any time traveler from all the bajillion years in the future into any point in their past will have all already occurred. History, at any given point, will have already included the actions of future time travelers. A Temporal Cold War would be resolved before it even started.

Another way to look at it. We already know that any attempt to travel back in time and kill Hitler as a youth will fail. It doesn't matter whether time traveling assassins come from 50, 5000, and/or 5 million years in the future. We know they will fail because any actions they take will already be part of our history; and in that history Hitler lived until adulthood.

You can't change the past, and you cant change the future.

So anyway. Data's head was already there the first time, which is the time that we saw.

Star Trek has always abided more by Back To The Future rules than by Lost rules. Time's Arrow is the only real exception.
 
First time? Pfft. I want to know how it's gonna happen next time!
datas_head_fusion.jpg
 
It would be interesting to see what would happen if Data's head turned up in an Abramsverse film. I doubt anyone would know what to do with it, though, since they wouldn't have the technology to reactivate him. IIRC, it took some doing for the TNG crew to reactivate and reattach the head.

(Data's head can function without the body, can't it? Didn't this happen in TNG once?)
 
The episode where Data's head was removed was Disaster.

And in the Abramsberse, Soong's ancestors would have already started researching him, and Noonien Soong is probably a young man bearing the head's resemblance.

So if young Soong got hold of the head, he would assume that in this timeline, building an android would doom it to beheading. He would not have built a positronic brain yet, but now he would have a completed prototype and enough knowledge of his own habits to know how to extract any memories. So he would potentially be able to play a visual record of his own death.
 
For the head's sake, I hope it doesn't wake up on its own...

As for Soong, I don't think he's born until the 2270's. But his father or grandfather (or even great-grandaddy Arik) could possibly be alive during the current Abrams films.
 
Well, the presence of Data's head does leave open the possibility of a ST:TNG crossover with Night Court.
 
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