How do you see the empire sizes in the 24th century?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Annorax849, Jun 20, 2014.

?

How?

  1. Federation, Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians all about the same size

    2 vote(s)
    8.3%
  2. UFP, Klingons, Romulans about the same size, Cardassians significantly smaller

    1 vote(s)
    4.2%
  3. UFP and Klingons about the same size, Romulans and Cardassians significantly smaller

    2 vote(s)
    8.3%
  4. Federation biggest by far, the other three about the same size

    2 vote(s)
    8.3%
  5. UFP > Klingons & Romulans > Cardassians

    12 vote(s)
    50.0%
  6. UFP > Klingons > Romulans & Cardassians

    2 vote(s)
    8.3%
  7. Other

    3 vote(s)
    12.5%
  1. Annorax849

    Annorax849 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 22, 2014
    Location:
    Connecticut
    I know the Federation isn't an empire, but you know what I mean. This was partially inspired by the "strength of the Star Trek Powers" thread. Keep in mind that this is more about territory/species than military might.

    And of course, I didn't include the other powers since this poll's already big enough.
     
  2. varek

    varek Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Location:
    Danville, IN, USA
    The Federation seems to be growing in membership, while the others are more static.
     
  3. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2001
    Location:
    Great Britain
    We have no idea of their sizes, all we know is that the UFP sapns at least 8000ly but what volume of psace is a different matter.
     
  4. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2001
    Location:
    Saint Louis, Missouri, USA
    Personally, I always imagined the Federation as being the largest galactic power in known local space, with the Klingons and Romulan Empires each being half its size, and the Cardassian Union being a fourth its size.

    When the Klingons and the Romulans presumably joined forces briefly during TOS, their combined alliance probably equaled the Federation in size, IMO.
     
  5. Jirin Actin Kinda Sus

    Jirin Actin Kinda Sus Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Location:
    JirinPanthosa
    You'll have to specify which part of the 24th century. It's pretty clear the Federation got larger and larger in that time period, whereas the Romulans and Cardassians got smaller. The Klingons took heavy losses but they probably expanded. Besides that they probably didn't have to give back most of their Cardassian gains, almost every future has them controlling the neutral and demilitarized zones.

    I would even say, in 2364 the Federation, Klingons and Romulans were very similar in size and the Cardassians were a bit smaller, but in 2375 the Federation was biggest, then Klingons, then Romulans, then Cardassians far in last pretty much only controlling Cardassia.
     
  6. Annorax849

    Annorax849 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 22, 2014
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Whenever I use a comparison like this, I always go by right around 2370, or at least some point before Die is Cast, so that.
     
  7. TheSubCommander

    TheSubCommander Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    UFP > Klingons > Romulans > Cardassians

    In a post-Romulus system world, it probably is like this:

    UFP > Klingons > Cardassians > Romulans
     
  8. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    The OP's poll is heavily weighted in favor of the Federation being bigger, or at least as big, than anyone else. While there is a "other" option, the possibility that (for example) Klingon territory might dwarf the Federation in size is not on the main menu.

    When the original Star Trek was on the air, Gene Roddenberry said the Federation's size could have been a dozen or a million planets.

    During the twenty-third century Kirk referred to the Federation as being "vast." Humans were on a thousand worlds. In some of the older (non-canon) role playing games, the Federation in the 23rd century was as big as fifteen hundred members.

    In the twenty-fourth century Picard spoke of the Federation being somewhat surprisingly only about one hundred and fifty planets.

    It's not inconceivable that between the time of Kirk, and the time of Picard, that the Federation reduced in total membership count. A widely dispersed, strung out string of star systems, stretching eight thousand light years.

    Dwarfed by the neighboring Klingon Empire.

    Klingons >Federation > Romulans > Everyone else.

    :)
     
  9. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2001
    Location:
    Saint Louis, Missouri, USA
    Another possibility is that the Federation could have 150 member planets like Earth, but also thousands of affiliated planets like Mercury or Neptune (associated worlds in a star system that are in the Federation due to their geographical connection to actual member worlds).
     
  10. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    King Daniel Beyond
    ^In some of the pre-release promo stuff for the 2009 movie, they rather cleverly reconciled the two by saying the Federation consisted of 150 member worlds and 700 colonies.
     
  11. MikeS

    MikeS Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2008
    Location:
    Liverpool, UK
    Other;

    UFP > Romulans > Klingons > Cardies.
     
  12. Jirin Actin Kinda Sus

    Jirin Actin Kinda Sus Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Location:
    JirinPanthosa
    I'm not even sure about that. Around 2367 the Cardassians probably had a decent sized empire. After 2375, they had no Empire, and only controlled Cardassia.
     
  13. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    Picard's statement to Lilly could have been better phrased.

    After the Dominion War any planet the Cardassians held in bondage as they did with Bajor would be separated from Cardassia, freed.

    The old disputed territories that were depicted in Journey's End, I can see being separated from the Cardassians. Any of the original settlers who were smart enough not to have joined the Marqius, could return to their former homes.

    Star systems that were being employed just as military outposts, separated.

    Cardassian colonies, on planets with no indigenous intelligent life, the Cardassian might be allowed to keep.

    That they would be completely stripped of their military goes without saying.

    :)
     
  14. Last Redshirt

    Last Redshirt Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2014
    Location:
    On the Starship Enterprise
    I always pictured the Federation as being the largest of the 'empires' simply because it was more outwardly expansive than the others. Sure the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, and the other minor powers surely had colonial systems but the Federation seemed to be founded on the principle of expanding itself.

    The Klingons on the Romulans always gave off the vibe that they were smaller than the Federation, but large enough to be a challenge to both each other and the Federation. The Cardassians seemed the smallest, and really seemed like an early empire, but late to the cake-cutting.
     
  15. TheSubCommander

    TheSubCommander Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    That's a valid point, but I see it like this. Post Dominion war Cardassia would have at least retained its traditional colony worlds and been allowed to govern them. A far as the Romulans, I mean Romulus and Remus are flat out destroyed, while Cardassia still exists. Romulans were always portrayed as analogue to the Roman Empire, which implies to me that they had a lot of worlds under their control by force. When Romulus and Remus are destroyed, I think it likely the Romulan Empire collapsed and the worlds under their former control would rise up to fight for their independence.
     
  16. Jirin Actin Kinda Sus

    Jirin Actin Kinda Sus Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Location:
    JirinPanthosa
    Depends what you mean by 'Traditional colony worlds'. If the Cardassians settled on uninhabited planets, sure. If you mean planets like Bajor they 'Colonized', even if the UFP would permit them to keep them they wouldn't have the military strength to do so effectively.

    I'm not sure the Rome analogy holds up in the 24th century. They undoubtedly had enough warning to do a good amount of evacuation. (And anyway the primeverse and Abramsverse are separate non-interacting canons)

    The Klingons are always portrayed as interested in expansion. In every alternate future, every alternate universe and every alternate timeline, they have acquired huge amounts of territory they don't have in the prime timeline. All Good Things, they absorbed the neutral zone and Romulan Empire. The Visitor, they controlled the wormhole. Yesterday's Enterprise they were about to conquer the Federation, mirrorverse they have.
     
  17. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    My impression (YMMV) is that Romulus and Remus weren't destroyed in the prime universe, like the rest of movies eleven and twelve, that occurred in a alternate universe and so had zero impact on the prime universe.

    When it comes to building a military force, the Klingon Empire have an interesting system.

    Instead of the central government building the majority of the forces (imo they build some), the hundreds or thousands of individual Klingon houses build their own house military forces, which can include starships of various sizes. The Empire's central government can then (hopefully) call upon those forces in times of need.

    True the houses will often use these forces to fight each other, but it's still is a sizable force that the central government didn't have to build.

    Like a Klingon militia.

    :)
     
  18. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2001
    Location:
    Saint Louis, Missouri, USA
    Or he may have been just getting straight to the point under the circumstances at the time.
     
  19. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    ^ I started a thread on this.



    :)
     
  20. Annorax849

    Annorax849 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 22, 2014
    Location:
    Connecticut
    While I didn't include them in the poll, I'm curious if people think the Tholians and Breen are bigger than the Cardassians. Star Charts actually had them bigger than the Romulans (at least on a 2D map), which seemed to be a bit of a surprising assumption.