How do you become a Vedek?

[Xerxes1979]

I ask because if they are appointed then Kai Winn's influence will extend from beyond the grave.

As space pope she would have filled the equivalent to a college of cardinals with her supporters.

It is pretty clear that the Vedek Assembly has institutional bias since Opaka also had a chosen favorite in the form of Bariel.

 

[Smellincoffee]

I figure vedeks are like monks, but the Vedeks in the assembly are politically-driven monks. Did a certain book released in late December mention you-know-who being part of the assembly, or just a vedek?

 

[T'Girl]

I think the Vedeks are less Cardinals and Monks, and more church elders. Partially because the Vedeks are composed of both men and women. The Vedek assembly membership comprised of those who gravitated towards the organization and "church offices" of their faith.

 

[Thestral]

Why would it matter that there's both men and women?

To Smellincoffee: said character is just a vedek, not part of the assembly.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think the Vedeks are less Cardinals and Monks, and more church elders. Partially because the Vedeks are composed of both men and women. The Vedek assembly membership comprised of those who gravitated towards the organization and "church offices" of their faith.

But haven't we seen both men and women officiating religious services? I thought that we had, in which case it would appear that Bajorans don't make a gender distinction in terms of who can be clergy.

 

[Thestral]

And even humans today are (finally, thank heaven) coming around to that realization that gender doesn't matter for clergy.

ETA: In circles that have been traditionally patriarchal, that is.

 

[Timo]

Vedek Bareil in "In the Hands of the Prophets" seemed to be saying that there are 113 Vedeks in the Assembly, or at least were at that time. It would be one hell of an achievement for Kai Winn to alter the political balance there through appointment unless she possessed some means of forcing out unwanted Vedeks, too.

And if she could do that, why was Bareil still standing?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Apparently, anyone can become a vedek, but not all vedeks are in the Assembly.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

And even humans today are (finally, thank heaven) coming around to that realization that gender doesn't matter for clergy.

ETA: In circles that have been traditionally patriarchal, that is.

To be fair, there are certain interpretations of the mystery of Communion that would require a male to be the one to conduct that particular ritual. My own denomination does not accept those particular beliefs.

I would, however, be OK with males only leading Communion if and only if women were not held back in ANY other way. But in common practice, things don't seem to happen that way, for the most part.

 

[Thestral]

Bah, Communion. Silly ritual.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Maybe to you, but certainly not to millions of people. Not all of us with the same interpretation of how it becomes so, but still.

 

[Thestral]

Heh, maybe that "" shoulda been a "." Communion's something I know plenty about and I recognize its significance, it's just never been a part of my worship experience and likely never will. My folk are different that way.

 

[Timo]

FWIW, the Bajoran faith does not seem to have "denominations" for their version of communion: anybody can personally go meet the Prophets by accessing one of the recovered Orbs, and the Bajoran clergy has no real say on what is done and how. There may be some regulation of who gets to chat with the Gods this way, but we've seen a curious menagerie of people do it even though the Orbs are rare and well guarded.

There are probably a number of other, cargo-cult ways of striving for communion with the Prophets, as evidenced by the existence of people's temples or prayer facilities, various candle rituals and the like. But when true contact with the Prophets also exists, would the majority of worshippers recognize the alternate methods as being purely for the show? Or would they still derive the same sort of spiritual satisfaction humans get out of their rituals with their far less communicative deities? Is direct chatting with the Prophets a myth for anybody not in the inner monasterial circles?

If the latter is true, then what is the significance of the revelation of the Celestial Temple? It assuredly provides a direct chat contact, yet we have never heard of Bajoran pilgrimage into the wormhole. Two religious figures gained additional spiritual significance thanks to the transporting qualities of the wormhole (Opaka disappearing, Akorem Laan appearing), but they didn't actually get to speak to the Prophets (*. Did this discourage the would-be pilgrims? Or did the Vedeks fear for loss of their influence and declared pilgrimage futile, taboo or otherwise against the interests of the faithful?

Timo Saloniemi

*) Well, Akorem did talk to the Prophets, but to the outsiders it merely appeared that the two contesting Emissaries went in, Sisko came out with a tall tale, and for all they know what really transpired inside the wormhole was simple manslaughter.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Actually, I thought the Vedek Assembly, and the various orders responsible for keeping the Orbs, DID have say over who could and could not see the Orbs, so I did not think that direct contact was a possibility for anybody and everybody.

 

[Jono]

Actually, I thought the Vedek Assembly, and the various orders responsible for keeping the Orbs, DID have say over who could and could not see the Orbs, so I did not think that direct contact was a possibility for anybody and everybody.

Formally they are meant to consult with the Assembly, Winn makes that point in "The Circle" when she finds out Bariel let Kira use an orb, but Bariel counters that no one is actually held to that, which Winn also admits.

In "Wrong Darker..." Kira had to ask for permission to use the Orb of Time and the only way she felt it would be guaranteed is if she had the backing of the "Emissary". So the keepers of the orbs seem to exercise some control over who gets to attempt to commune with the Prophets through the orb.

*) Well, Akorem did talk to the Prophets, but to the outsiders it merely appeared that the two contesting Emissaries went in, Sisko came out with a tall tale, and for all they know what really transpired inside the wormhole was simple manslaughter.

Except both came of them did exit the wormhole.

 

[Timo]

Did they? In my recollection, we never saw Akorem again after he went in for the second time.

Kira: "I thought your speech went very well yesterday. It was the right thing to do."
Sisko: "I wanted everyone to know what happened to Akorem, and that the Prophets said nothing about returning to the d'jarras."

If Akorem had returned from the wormhole, wouldn't he have been the one telling what had happened to him, and what the Prophets thought about the caste system? Even if he agreed that he no longer was the Emissary, and that Sisko was.

Also, his unfinished poem getting finished would not be that much of a mystery if he were still alive and with the heroes. Or at least he would be consulted on that mystery.

Looks like the Prophets chose to keep Akorem. Which would look very much like Sisko dumped him out of the runabout airlock to win the contest for Emissary. Must have been one mighty speech to convince the followers otherwise!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Thestral]

It's good to be Space Jesus...

 

[Jono]

Did they? In my recollection, we never saw Akorem again after he went in for the second time.

Kira: "I thought your speech went very well yesterday. It was the right thing to do."
Sisko: "I wanted everyone to know what happened to Akorem, and that the Prophets said nothing about returning to the d'jarras."

If Akorem had returned from the wormhole, wouldn't he have been the one telling what had happened to him, and what the Prophets thought about the caste system? Even if he agreed that he no longer was the Emissary, and that Sisko was.

The Prophets specifically state he wouldn't remember anything of his journey to the future. They altered Zek into an "anti-Ferengi", a bit of mind wiping shouldn't be beyond them.

Looks like the Prophets chose to keep Akorem. Which would look very much like Sisko dumped him out of the runabout airlock to win the contest for Emissary. Must have been one mighty speech to convince the followers otherwise!

Timo Saloniemi

They wouldn't need much convincing if their own records changed to say Akormen lived X more years and produced X more works.

 

[Timo]

All the people we listened to (that is, Sisko and Kira) were aware that Akorem went in with Sisko and didn't come out again. Was the entire population of Bajor mindwiped as well (despite never going into the wormhole) to think that Akorem had never come to the future, had never challenged Sisko for Emissaryhood, and had never failed to return from the fateful trip to the wormhole with his competitor in a highly suspicious manner?

OTOH, the poem thing would make perfect sense if the Prophets did want Bajorans to remember the False Emissary Incident yet also believe Sisko's story that Akorem was not killed but simply sent back to the past to complete his life's work. That Kira is aware of the poem having been mysteriously completed is proof already that the Prophets can mess even with the minds of people who don't enter the wormhole.

It still stinks, though. If the outcome is "Akorem no longer in the 24th century, Sisko returns alone, everybody realizes records have been altered", then the only logical conclusion is "Starfleet/government conspiracy to hide Sisko's murder of the real Emissary"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jono]

Given Sisko had to make a speech at all suggests that everyone remembered Akorem's doings in the future...present.

To you it stinks and the logical conclusion is "conspiracy" but would it be to a Bajoran? They live in a world where their gods are very real and a universe were time travel isn't a topic of fiction but an fact. So a claim that their gods sent someone back to the past and history has changed could seem perfectly logical to them.