TNG is wonderful. It's not without its flaws - there are plenty of weak episodes - but it has the best leading actor of any Trek, possibly of any sci-fi show and when it was on form it was awesome. Seriously, the cumulative effect of DS9 may perhaps be better (or not), but I still think that TNG at its very best outdoes DS9.
How do Niners feel about Voyager?
- Thread starter TheGodBen
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I don't deny the influential role TNG played. But even in "The Wounded," don't start me on Picard's lecture to Macet in the end.
The great thing about DS9 was that it really put the shoe on the other foot, and when humans were hypocritical, they got CALLED on it and could not get out of it like Picard always did on TNG.
Yeah, because they WERE being hypocrites in DS9. Not so with Picard in TNG.
As for the Macet thing, I try to not let my liking of an alien species get in the way of my judgment so I had no problem with Picard chewing out Macet for basically lying to his face the whole episode.
As for the Macet thing, I try to not let my liking of an alien species get in the way of my judgment so I had no problem with Picard chewing out Macet for basically lying to his face the whole episode.
A
Amaris
Guest
Actually, some of the better examples of Picard being a hypocrite was in "Pen Pals", "I, Borg" and in the movie "First Contact".
J.
I certainly find the upstanding morals and what some on this board would call "political correctness" of TNG to be admirable, but I rather enjoyed the way DS9 strayed into different territory. For instance, Kira's "You were all guilty! You were all legitimate targets!" rant in The Darkness and the Light is not necessarily something I'd agree with, but I found it extremely compelling.
I agree, Picard was very hypocritical but never got called for it. The DS9 characters could be flaming hypocrites too, but at least they actually got called on the carpet for it and had to face the consequences, either internally or externally in one form or another. (For example, O'Brien routinely used racist terminology against the Cardassians--while wearing a uniform that supposedly espoused "evolved" ideals that would never speak even of the enemy in such fashion...and he got that thrown right back in his face during "Tribunal" in front of all of Cardassia, possibly even the entire quadrant.)
As for Macet, yes--he lied. Calling him on Central Command's BS was one thing, and I agreed with that. Picard had to send a message back to Macet's superiors through him, one that was very necessary. However, it was the whole unnecessary twist of the knife implying that because he was Cardassian, he could not understand loyalty like a human would, that I thought was way over the line. This from Mr. Relativism and Tolerance, who outright supported the utterly bloody and cutthroat Klingon customs that were just as bad as the Cardassians' in their own way.
He was defending Maxwell from Macet saying he was nothing more than a renegade, and it wasn't a racial thing. He was saying he didn't understand Maxwell the way Picard and others in Starfleet would. It's an opposing factions thing, not a racial thing. That sort of conversation easily would have happened between two humans.
As for "Pen Pals", he was obeying the PD. "I, Borg", the virus wouldn't have worked, "First Contact" he got called out on it.
As for "Pen Pals", he was obeying the PD. "I, Borg", the virus wouldn't have worked, "First Contact" he got called out on it.
But he never said that. He said that Macet didn't understand humans - that the kind of loyalty O'Brien felt for Maxwell does not come that easily to humans, it has to be earned (the point being that O'Brien's loyalty to Maxwell did not come out of nowhere - Maxwell had been deeply respected by his soldiers for the man he used to be). Which does make sense - Cardassians are supposed to be unquestionably loyal to the State and to their superiors, it's a part of their culture. Humans would be more likely to question authority.
The problem is, Maxwell WAS nothing but a renegade. I don't give a damn what his past record was--once he was over the line he had to be treated accordingly.
The way I read the remark was very different, because Cardassian loyalty is anything BUT unquestioning. Loyalty to the state itself, you're absolutely right, DevilEyes. But loyalty to specific individuals...definitely not. Cardassians are also known for turning somebody over immediately when they turn traitor, regardless of any past affection. That seemed like what Macet was--in this case RIGHTLY--advocating: cutting any sentimental ties and treating Maxwell as the renegade and the criminal he was, not coddling him because of past accomplishments.
Furthermore, it wasn't an issue of obeying one's superiors, for everyone involved...Gul Macet, Captain Picard, and Captain Maxwell were all equivalent-ranking officers, but Picard demonstrated the same almost willfully ignorant behavior regarding what Maxwell was doing. For most of the episode, Picard DID try to coddle Maxwell. He was inexcusably naive, and in two readily identifiable instances decided to gamble with Cardassian lives thanks to his refusal to believe what Maxwell was really up to until he finally had to face facts. In addition, we had O'Brien refusing to believe that Maxwell could ever go on a revenge-seeking mission, which Macet called exactly what it was. I have to say, I think the gul was perfectly justified in his assessment of Picard's and O'Brien's inability to cut their sentimental ties when Maxwell's breakdown or whatever it was required it.
And then for Picard to chide HIM as though HE doesn't understand how loyalty was supposed to work? Total hypocritical BS.
The way I read the remark was very different, because Cardassian loyalty is anything BUT unquestioning. Loyalty to the state itself, you're absolutely right, DevilEyes. But loyalty to specific individuals...definitely not. Cardassians are also known for turning somebody over immediately when they turn traitor, regardless of any past affection. That seemed like what Macet was--in this case RIGHTLY--advocating: cutting any sentimental ties and treating Maxwell as the renegade and the criminal he was, not coddling him because of past accomplishments.
Furthermore, it wasn't an issue of obeying one's superiors, for everyone involved...Gul Macet, Captain Picard, and Captain Maxwell were all equivalent-ranking officers, but Picard demonstrated the same almost willfully ignorant behavior regarding what Maxwell was doing. For most of the episode, Picard DID try to coddle Maxwell. He was inexcusably naive, and in two readily identifiable instances decided to gamble with Cardassian lives thanks to his refusal to believe what Maxwell was really up to until he finally had to face facts. In addition, we had O'Brien refusing to believe that Maxwell could ever go on a revenge-seeking mission, which Macet called exactly what it was. I have to say, I think the gul was perfectly justified in his assessment of Picard's and O'Brien's inability to cut their sentimental ties when Maxwell's breakdown or whatever it was required it.
And then for Picard to chide HIM as though HE doesn't understand how loyalty was supposed to work? Total hypocritical BS.
At that time, Picard knew what the Cardies were doing and that Macet had lied to him, that the treaty is in danger because the spoonheads shit on it.
I'd assume he was very pissed and tried to counter Macet's smug remarks about human loyalty. It may still be hypocritical, but if there was a moment to be an ass for Picard, this was it.
And I don't see how Picard was "coddling" Maxwell. After cutting him down to size in their first meeting and giving him direct orders, he let him retain his command on their way to his trial, which may be some traditional thing.
I'd assume he was very pissed and tried to counter Macet's smug remarks about human loyalty. It may still be hypocritical, but if there was a moment to be an ass for Picard, this was it.
And I don't see how Picard was "coddling" Maxwell. After cutting him down to size in their first meeting and giving him direct orders, he let him retain his command on their way to his trial, which may be some traditional thing.
Let's see. He goes piddling through Cardassian space at Warp Four while Maxwell's blowing up Cardassian ships and it's very obvious they can't stand up to the Phoenix--that should've been a Warp 9 situation. And even if there was some sort of initial agreement on how fast Picard could travel through Cardassian space, he had a Cardassian gul right there who would almost certainly have agreed to step on the gas! Then Picard thinks he can just ask nicely for Maxwell to return to base, and not even bother to throw a tractor beam on the Phoenix or better yet, order all of its command and control systems slaved over to the Enterprise to make SURE it gets back, and Maxwell thrown in the brig so there's no chance of his getting away. Someone who has been going around killing people like Maxwell was should never be left under their own recognizance...not even close. That is inexcusable naivete and it endangered lives again.
And though yes, there was a long-term danger from what Central Command was doing, there was a danger of collapsing the treaty in the present moment due to what Maxwell was doing...and furthermore, Maxwell had already killed people without any sanction from Starfleet to do so.
And frankly, Picard was being an ass because just as he'd caught the Cardassians in something, Macet had just about as much dirt on him and HIS conduct, and he was very fortunate Macet didn't press the matter as Dukat surely would've. But whatever Picard's excuse was, no matter how mad he was, if he's going to act like he's this absolute moral paragon, this "evolved being" beyond ordinary human nature, then he simply isn't going to get a pass for his outburst, in my book. Fine way to lose the high moral ground, buddy.
And though yes, there was a long-term danger from what Central Command was doing, there was a danger of collapsing the treaty in the present moment due to what Maxwell was doing...and furthermore, Maxwell had already killed people without any sanction from Starfleet to do so.
And frankly, Picard was being an ass because just as he'd caught the Cardassians in something, Macet had just about as much dirt on him and HIS conduct, and he was very fortunate Macet didn't press the matter as Dukat surely would've. But whatever Picard's excuse was, no matter how mad he was, if he's going to act like he's this absolute moral paragon, this "evolved being" beyond ordinary human nature, then he simply isn't going to get a pass for his outburst, in my book. Fine way to lose the high moral ground, buddy.
I'd file the Warp four thingie under "usual Warp speed bullshit". As you said, a Gul was on board and that Admiral had made it very clear that Picard was to do everything to protect the peace.
Can you imagine Pcard telling Macet"Calm down man, what's the hurry?" for days. It's just a stupid oversight.
As for Picard letting him retain his command...it's not perfectly plausible since indeed keeping him in command gives a wrong message in this situation. Putting him in the brig should not be a problem.
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But since Picard talks of the "disgrace" of towing his ship to the stabase and imprisoning him, this is not necessarily Picard going easy in this case, but rather some military honor...thing. like it was never necessary before and the word of a Starfleet Captain and whatever. Still kinda stupid. They should have made a story where Maxwell breaks out and retakes command or something.
And yeah, of course this "evolved humans" stuff has always been crap.
I still think Picard has a good excuse for his outburst. Again, in that situation he was talking to a guy who had been
faking to be a kindred spirit who wants peace. Who had been lying into his face. Whom he was maybe going to give his "We'll be watching" warning anyway (he probably had had another chat with his superiors).
It was Picard's way of saying "Ok, dude, this slimy talk can stop right now". It was out of line, but he was furious, his words were, as the script says "steel".
It's funny, years ago when the episode was new I always felt Picard was pretty hard on Maxwell during their first talk.
He came aboard with a rock-solid confidence he was right and Picard would understand. At the end of the conversation, he was devastated and seemed ready to accept responsibility.
"He couldn't find his role in peace" was sure a weak comment. Maxwell was the wrong choice for Captain, a threat to peace, and leaving him in command seems wrong.
also, Harry Kim sucks monkey balls.
Can you imagine Pcard telling Macet"Calm down man, what's the hurry?" for days. It's just a stupid oversight.
As for Picard letting him retain his command...it's not perfectly plausible since indeed keeping him in command gives a wrong message in this situation. Putting him in the brig should not be a problem.
.
But since Picard talks of the "disgrace" of towing his ship to the stabase and imprisoning him, this is not necessarily Picard going easy in this case, but rather some military honor...thing. like it was never necessary before and the word of a Starfleet Captain and whatever. Still kinda stupid. They should have made a story where Maxwell breaks out and retakes command or something.
And yeah, of course this "evolved humans" stuff has always been crap.
I still think Picard has a good excuse for his outburst. Again, in that situation he was talking to a guy who had been
faking to be a kindred spirit who wants peace. Who had been lying into his face. Whom he was maybe going to give his "We'll be watching" warning anyway (he probably had had another chat with his superiors).
It was Picard's way of saying "Ok, dude, this slimy talk can stop right now". It was out of line, but he was furious, his words were, as the script says "steel".
It's funny, years ago when the episode was new I always felt Picard was pretty hard on Maxwell during their first talk.
He came aboard with a rock-solid confidence he was right and Picard would understand. At the end of the conversation, he was devastated and seemed ready to accept responsibility.
"He couldn't find his role in peace" was sure a weak comment. Maxwell was the wrong choice for Captain, a threat to peace, and leaving him in command seems wrong.
also, Harry Kim sucks monkey balls.
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The whole thing seems very weak indeed, the way Picard handled things--and for the ONE time he actually acted with any sort of "strength" to be to fling a childish insult...it just makes it a million times worse.
As I said, the Cardassian treaty violation is not something I approve of. But I think it's quite likely Gul Macet DID want to keep the peace, that he wasn't faking. I would rather take to PM the real-life examples of why I say this, should you feel you need to see an example or two, but soldiers even in the US and other democratic nations' armies are not permitted to give their political opinions when acting in an official capacity (i.e. in uniform).
It is very interesting to note that the Treklit novels--while not canon and therefore not definitive for this discussion by any means--characterize Macet as having been genuine indeed in wanting to keep the peace, but stuck in the position of having to cover up the evidence of a really shitty, self-destructive policy of Central Command's of which he personally disapproved (because it was very, VERY counterproductive to the peace he and Picard wanted).
For me, it's Macet's total silence at Picard's revelation that lends a degree of credibility to this theory. Dukat, and any number of other Cardassians we have seen throughout the series would've had the audacity to continue lying right to Picard's face, after getting caught in a situation like that, or doing an elaborate on-the-spot spin job to justify themselves. Macet, on the other hand, does not dodge it. He cannot tell the truth because he would most certainly be tortured or killed at home, and possibly his family would wind up dead as well--and yet by his silence he does give acknowledgment. (It's an almost Garakian maneuver, though Macet's personality and Garak's are quite different.) Now, I can't prove anything, but I do think the fact that Macet acquiesces to the truth rather than doing what we see other Cardassians do is quite interesting and notable.
As I said, the Cardassian treaty violation is not something I approve of. But I think it's quite likely Gul Macet DID want to keep the peace, that he wasn't faking. I would rather take to PM the real-life examples of why I say this, should you feel you need to see an example or two, but soldiers even in the US and other democratic nations' armies are not permitted to give their political opinions when acting in an official capacity (i.e. in uniform).
It is very interesting to note that the Treklit novels--while not canon and therefore not definitive for this discussion by any means--characterize Macet as having been genuine indeed in wanting to keep the peace, but stuck in the position of having to cover up the evidence of a really shitty, self-destructive policy of Central Command's of which he personally disapproved (because it was very, VERY counterproductive to the peace he and Picard wanted).
For me, it's Macet's total silence at Picard's revelation that lends a degree of credibility to this theory. Dukat, and any number of other Cardassians we have seen throughout the series would've had the audacity to continue lying right to Picard's face, after getting caught in a situation like that, or doing an elaborate on-the-spot spin job to justify themselves. Macet, on the other hand, does not dodge it. He cannot tell the truth because he would most certainly be tortured or killed at home, and possibly his family would wind up dead as well--and yet by his silence he does give acknowledgment. (It's an almost Garakian maneuver, though Macet's personality and Garak's are quite different.) Now, I can't prove anything, but I do think the fact that Macet acquiesces to the truth rather than doing what we see other Cardassians do is quite interesting and notable.
There was plenty of talk on DS9 about humanity not needing money because of our need to inprove ourselves and I never heard them say anything on TNG about humans evolving being the need to be human. In fact in First Contact Picard admits to making alot of mistakes, I've never heard Sisko ever admitting to making a mistake.
And in The Wounded they had no idea where Maxwell was, once they found him the Enterprise increased speed to reach him.
And in The Wounded they had no idea where Maxwell was, once they found him the Enterprise increased speed to reach him.
They actually did not increase speed once they got a fix on Maxwell's location. During the whole period they're watching the tactical display as Maxwell is destroying Cardassian ships, they remain at Warp 4.
Disillusioned
Commander
I dislike VOY because it was a bad show on its own merits, not because I'm a fan of DS9. DS9 is harly a perfect series and has its own weak points, but VOY took a really good concept and just ignored it in favor of the usual drivel that TNG tended to be about at its worst. A lot of this is UPN's fault, but that doesn't make the show any better.
And right after that Picard orders an increase to warp nine.
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/nextgeneration/season4/tng-412.txt
There was one line in DS9 about humans not needing money, and that was an in-joke Ron Moore wrote humorously lambasting Picard saying the exact same thing in the recently released First Contact. There are countless occasions in DS9 where humans are shown to have money and spending it, they wouldn't be able to buy anything in Quark's if they weren't paying him.
The whole situation is very muddy and makes little sense.
They were shown using money in TNG as well, what they really were trying to say was that they weren't as materialistic anymore (replicators, makes sense) and their economy was different (which again, made sense). People keep getting it wrong because they think they way they have and spend money today is the ONLY way it can be done. Narrow-mindedness.
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