How do/did you feel about the return of the Enterprise-D?

[evilchumlee]

If you remove the nostalgia, I'd say that I still would've enjoyed the season more than 1 and 2, in general. I think the odd-couple/antagonistic dynamic between Seven and Shaw, the more disciplined crew of the Titan and the performance from Amanda Plummer would've been enough to make this season really quite special as a finale.

This.

I think the references/nostalgia bits only enhanced the season and they... by and large... made sense and advanced the plot, or at least added more emotional depth. It could have been without at least some of it and would have still been good, and quite frankly still the best season of anything in the Kurtzman-era.

Maybe i'm weird, I really don't mind "fan service". I'm a fan. Service me. I don't think it's a terrible thing to give... fans... what they want?

 

[Daedalus]

This.

I think the references/nostalgia bits only enhanced the season and they... by and large... made sense and advanced the plot, or at least added more emotional depth. It could have been without at least some of it and would have still been good, and quite frankly still the best season of anything in the Kurtzman-era.

Maybe i'm weird, I really don't mind "fan service". I'm a fan. Service me. I don't think it's a terrible thing to give... fans... what they want?

I feel like there were a few moments that could've been skipped, but it's nothing most people would make a fuss about.

Making the Titan the next Enterprise seemed the most gratuitous part from my perspective, as I enjoyed the idea of it being the little ship that could. Technically, the ship remains the same, but there's a certain expectation with a ship called Enterprise. Titan as the underdog could make for great stories where it's limitations encourage an extra amount of ingenuity from the crew.

It still remains to be seen if we'll see her again.

 

[evilchumlee]

I feel like there were a few moments that could've been skipped, but it's nothing most people would make a fuss about.

For sure, there's some things that didn't really need to be there, but they also didn't detract from anything. Like say, Moriarty. Did they need that? No. Did it negatively impact anything? Also no.

Making the Titan the next Enterprise seemed the most gratuitous part from my perspective, as I enjoyed the idea of it being the little ship that could. Technically, the ship remains the same, but there's a certain expectation with a ship called Enterprise. Titan as the underdog could make for great stories where it's limitations encourage an extra amount of ingenuity from the crew.

That's probably my only minor gripe, and it's basically insignificant. I would have preferred the Titan not become Enterprise. I always find of figured the show would end with a "USS Picard".

 

[Praetor]

I always find of figured the show would end with a "USS Picard".

Me too.

 

[fireproof78]

If you remove the nostalgia, I'd say that I still would've enjoyed the season more than 1 and 2, in general. I think the odd-couple/antagonistic dynamic between Seven and Shaw, the more disciplined crew of the Titan and the performance from Amanda Plummer would've been enough to make this season really quite special as a finale.

I agree. I don't think all the nostalgia served the story, and I think there was too much emphasis on the conflict between Shaw, Seven, Picard and Riker. He was initially understandable, given the bluster over Picard and Riker showing up (what happened to the first duty, Picard?). But he become more insufferable as it went on, and that was time wasted to me.

Same with the Enterprise D. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I've got a ship," but the crew sits there and basically says, "This was the time we only made a difference." And it's damn frustrating to the pacing.

The La Sirena crew never really did much for me in honesty, they always made for an uncomfortable watch. I couldn't get past Jurati's actions or Raffi's behaviour enough to think "Yeah, I'd follow this crew of misfits for another season!" So it was really quite refreshing to find my comfort zone again with the Titan crew.

See, I'm the opposite. I wanted to see the La Sirena crew try to work together, and actually be a little different. I don't want to be in my comfort zone all the time. Season 3 started out strongly outside of it, but then ended up strangely very mixed. It had huge levels of action, which I enjoy, but the D acting like the Millenium Falcon was eyebrow raising, and the Borg Queen was a let down.

Again, it's not a bad season. It's quite enjoyable. I just prefer Season 1 over it.

 

[evilchumlee]

Same with the Enterprise D. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I've got a ship," but the crew sits there and basically says, "This was the time we only made a difference." And it's damn frustrating to the pacing.

I don't know if that was quite the message it trying to convey.

I think the reactions to the E-D were very... human. That's exactly how I would expect people in that situation to act. Yeah, there's some serious things going down that they need to respond to... but I think taking a couple of minutes to appreciate being back in a place they called home for seven years and had a huge impact on all of their lives is completely understandable.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't know if that was quite the message it trying to convey.

Then perhaps it could have been worded better.

I think the reactions to the E-D were very... human. That's exactly how I would expect people in that situation to act. Yeah, there's some serious things going down that they need to respond to... but I think taking a couple of minutes to appreciate being back in a place they called home for seven years and had a huge impact on all of their lives is completely understandable.

I didn't say it wasn't. I said it impacted the story.

 

[Daedalus]

For sure, there's some things that didn't really need to be there, but they also didn't detract from anything. Like say, Moriarty. Did they need that? No. Did it negatively impact anything? Also no.



That's probably my only minor gripe, and it's basically insignificant. I would have preferred the Titan not become Enterprise. I always find of figured the show would end with a "USS Picard".

Oh, I wouldn't swap those brief few moments with Daniel Davis for anything.
I felt like I instinctively knew that Data was returning, but I didn't realise it would be so impactful for me on a personal level.

I agree. I don't think all the nostalgia served the story, and I think there was too much emphasis on the conflict between Shaw, Seven, Picard and Riker. He was initially understandable, given the bluster over Picard and Riker showing up (what happened to the first duty, Picard?). But he become more insufferable as it went on, and that was time wasted to me.

Same with the Enterprise D. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I've got a ship," but the crew sits there and basically says, "This was the time we only made a difference." And it's damn frustrating to the pacing.

See, I'm the opposite. I wanted to see the La Sirena crew try to work together, and actually be a little different. I don't want to be in my comfort zone all the time. Season 3 started out strongly outside of it, but then ended up strangely very mixed. It had huge levels of action, which I enjoy, but the D acting like the Millenium Falcon was eyebrow raising, and the Borg Queen was a let down.

Again, it's not a bad season. It's quite enjoyable. I just prefer Season 1 over it.

The trench run scene was way out of character for the Enterprise D, If you could say it has a character.

The wonderful scene in Booby Trap, where Picard takes the helm, is how I picture my beloved cruise ship in space. Now, if it was the Defiant in that scene, I'd believe that a touch more.

 

[DonIago]

I have to admit by the time of PS3 I was pretty over Brent Spiner and Data in his various incarnations. The Search for Spock takes some flak for resurrecting Spock from the dead, but by the end of PS3 Data's been killed in Nemesis and chosen to die in PS1 only to come back again...and Spiner's appearance in PS2 felt...I don't want to say gratuitous, but the season had plenty of things it could have done without involving another Soong.

 

[Firebird]

I have to admit by the time of PS3 I was pretty over Brent Spiner and Data in his various incarnations. The Search for Spock takes some flak for resurrecting Spock from the dead, but by the end of PS3 Data's been killed in Nemesis and chosen to die in PS1 only to come back again...and Spiner's appearance in PS2 felt...I don't want to say gratuitous, but the season had plenty of things it could have done without involving another Soong.

The franchise repeatedly killing and bringing Data back has done nothing but undermine any significance his sacrifice in Nemesis might've had. Picard season 1 was fine because it gave Jean-Luc closure. But bringing him back in season 3 really does nothing but serve nostalgia. He's only there so that all of the "magnificent seven" of the Enterprise-D can stand on that expensive Bridge set together.

 

[Lord Garth]

The franchise repeatedly killing and bringing Data back has done nothing but undermine any significance his sacrifice in Nemesis might've had. Picard season 1 was fine because it gave Jean-Luc closure. But bringing him back in season 3 really does nothing but serve nostalgia. He's only there so that all of the "magnificent seven" of the Enterprise-D can stand on that expensive Bridge set together.

I know what you're saying, and I understand it, but... This would matter a LOT more to me if I liked Nemesis better. As it is, not really. Data's sacrifice was no Spock's sacrifice. Those scenes aren't even in the same league.

Aside from that, TSFS undid Spock's death in TWOK and I won't tell people who were against it, like Nick Meyer, that they're wrong, because they're not. At the same time, that didn't bother me either. Of course, I also saw TWOK and TSFS years after the fact, so what was done had already been done.

Once I knew PIC Season 3 would be a TNG Reunion, I understood that having them all back meant having them all back. That's just the way Hollywood works. "It is what it is" as they say.

Back in 2002, when they had B-4 trying to sing Blue Skies, I had a feeling they'd bring Data back if they made another movie. That's what we all probably figured. Nemesis flopping made it a moot point, but I wasn't surprised in the slightest when Picard Season 3 actually went through with it.

 

[Firebird]

Once I knew PIC Season 3 would be a TNG Reunion, I understood that having them all back meant having them all back. That's just the way Hollywood works. "It is what it is" as they say.

"It is what it is" is just a cop-out to let the shoddy and uninspired writing slide.

 

[Lord Garth]

"It is what it is" is just a cop-out to let the shoddy and uninspired writing slide.

I'm not letting anything slide. I'm saying I don't care. Data's death wasn't well-written, I didn't think so back in 2002 either, so I'm not going to pretend Picard undid some Dramatic Masterpiece. There are worse things than undoing a mediocre movie.

In theory, I should think TSFS is a bad movie for undoing TWOK. It brought Spock back and killed off Kirk's son. Two major developments undone. Yet I don't think it's a bad movie. And Spock's death was MUCH better written.

If I was okay with Spock's resurrection, but not Data's, that would be hypocritical.

 

[fireproof78]

"It is what it is" is just a cop-out to let the shoddy and uninspired writing slide.

Not at all. What more can you do?

 

[cal888]

There likely will never will be an objectively correct way to do nostalgia, It's something we really have to live with as fans. You could say "less is more", which is often a fair common ground. But then again, how do you define "less" or "more" when it comes to wanting to see the things you love?

&

This.

I think the references/nostalgia bits only enhanced the season and they... by and large... made sense and advanced the plot, or at least added more emotional depth. It could have been without at least some of it and would have still been good, and quite frankly still the best season of anything in the Kurtzman-era.

Maybe i'm weird, I really don't mind "fan service". I'm a fan. Service me. I don't think it's a terrible thing to give... fans... what they want?

I mean, look... Was "All Good Things..." full of nostalgia for "Encounter at Farpoint"? Was "Emissary" full of nostalgia for "Best of Both Worlds"? PS3 brought TNG full circle, touching back to Farpoint, AGT, GEN, FC, and NEM.

What were people expecting? TPTB to double down on the deconstructionist fan antagonism of PS1? Aside from a few vocal elements, PS3 was the most broadly well received and least polarizing season of any NuTrek. Most legacy fans were pleased. Most NuTrek fans also at least liked it a bit.

Sure, the restored E-D was a stretch, but does it make sense in-universe? The Shatnerverse novel "The Return" introduced the idea of retrieving the saucer because Veridian IV had a pre-warp society. If you have to go through all the effort to retrieve the saucer (and if the saucer is designed to be recoverable) why not put such a famous ship in a museum since it has to go somewhere anyway? And if the new head of said museum happens to have a personal interest in the ship and post-scarcity resources are available, why not restore it?

I gave "Vox" like a 6/10 for rushing part of the plot, being so senseless with the body count, and opening the Jack mystery box too late. I'm not saying the season is perfect, but it is far better than most of what we've gotten post-2005.

PS3 has ~less~ homework than PS1 or PS2. It has far less "memberberries" than STLD. Aside from needing to know the details of "Preemptive Strike", you just need broad basic knowledge of the franchise's greatest hits.

Is having canonically accurate legacy ships at the fleet museum really worth all the OMG nostalgia pearl clutching?

Making the Titan the next Enterprise seemed the most gratuitous part from my perspective, as I enjoyed the idea of it being the little ship that could. Technically, the ship remains the same, but there's a certain expectation with a ship called Enterprise. Titan as the underdog could make for great stories where it's limitations encourage an extra amount of ingenuity from the crew.

I think they got trapped selling Patrick Stewart on renaming it the USS Picard. Then when they wanted to pivot, they had to change the name to something and went with Enterprise. Is it the best thing they could have done? No, but again it does bring TNG full circle by sending a new generation out on a new Enterprise. If they had 4X the budget they could have had a new ship or something. But with the time and budget constraints they had, it works.

Back in 2002, when they had B-4 trying to sing Blue Skies, I had a feeling they'd bring Data back if they made another movie. That's what we all probably figured. Nemesis flopping made it a moot point, but I wasn't surprised in the slightest when Picard Season 3 actually went through with it.

OMG, PS3 is completely disrespecting NEM. Had there been a fifth TNG film, what are the odds Brent Spiner wouldn't have been enticed back?

And the novelverse did something very similar anyway.

 

[Lord Garth]

Had there been a fifth TNG film, what are the odds Brent Spiner wouldn't have been enticed back?

All they had to do was figure out how to not have him in that Data makeup anymore playing an ageless android. What they came up with in PIC Season 3 for Data actually works better than what they did in PIC Season 1.

Brent Spiner didn't convincingly look like Data in PIC S1, unfortunately. How they were able to have Data's consciousness didn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. But I'm no Cyberneticist, so I went along with it. I couldn't understand it anyway. The whole "please end my existence" thing I didn't agree with. I'm not going to get into that again. I won't deny it was a well-done scene, but I didn't agree with it. It's the only thing I didn't like about the S1 finale.

PIC S3, on the other hand, picked up Data's situation directly from Nemesis. Using the download of Data from B-4 is something I can understand, even as a layman to Cybernetics. And Brent Spiner didn't have to look like TNG Data anymore. He got to look like himself as he is now, just with gold eyes. It works better.

 

[Lord Garth]

It has far less "memberberries" than STLD.

I stopped watching Lower Decks after Season 2. It actually is what people accuse Picard of being. On top of that, Lower Decks looks and feels just like the TNG Era. If they'd done an adult cartoon of Star Trek in the late-'90s or early-'00s, LD is exactly what it would've been like.

But the references weren't why I stopped watching. I just thought it wasn't that funny. I'll get back to it at some point. It sounds like T'Lyn, being a Daria-type, would give Lower Decks the balance that I thought was missing from it before.

 

[cal888]

I stopped watching Lower Decks after Season 2. It actually is what people accuse Picard of being. On top of that, Lower Decks looks and feels just like the TNG Era. If they'd done an adult cartoon of Star Trek in the late-'90s or early-'00s, LD is exactly what it would've been like.

I really wish they'd gotten someone in like David Goodman to do an animated Star Trek comedy.

STLD makes so many own goal choices. It's... animated. There goes half the potential audience. It's a comedy... now you're down to 25%. Now instead of treating it like just like Star Trek comedic episodes in the past, it goes for a very postmodernist outside of Star Trek approach with the characters having incredibly trivial detailed knowledge of certain lore while also having near parody level situations that just wouldn't have happened in-universe in the Berman era. Now down to like 12.5%.

I'd recommend pressing on and watching the third season. 8 of the 10 episodes are great by STLD standards. Season 4 unfortunately really dropped off, with only say 3-4 great episodes?

 

[Daedalus]

I think they got trapped selling Patrick Stewart on renaming it the USS Picard. Then when they wanted to pivot, they had to change the name to something and went with Enterprise. Is it the best thing they could have done? No, but again it does bring TNG full circle by sending a new generation out on a new Enterprise. If they had 4X the budget they could have had a new ship or something. But with the time and budget constraints they had, it works.

One of the problems I foresaw with a Legacy series, was that we'd end up with two different shows with a ship named Enterprise.I felt like it cut the chances of a continuation by some degree as someone high-up would wonder why it was necessary. I could imagine the F surviving to do grand adventures while the Titan got caught up in scrapes outside of its class, but with this budget reduction and potential merger it seems streaming movies are the best hope we have.

With that in mind, an occasional movie with the Enterprise-G crew, and SNW Enterprise in its own series seems more manageable. Hopefully....maybe..

All they had to do was figure out how to not have him in that Data makeup anymore playing an ageless android. What they came up with in PIC Season 3 for Data actually works better than what they did in PIC Season 1.

Brent Spiner didn't convincingly look like Data in PIC S1, unfortunately. How they were able to have Data's consciousness didn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. But I'm no Cyberneticist, so I went along with it. I couldn't understand it anyway. The whole "please end my existence" thing I didn't agree with. I'm not going to get into that again. I won't deny it was a well-done scene, but I didn't agree with it. It's the only thing I didn't like about the S1 finale.

PIC S3, on the other hand, picked up Data's situation directly from Nemesis. Using the download of Data from B-4 is something I can understand, even as a layman to Cybernetics. And Brent Spiner didn't have to look like TNG Data anymore. He got to look like himself as he is now, just with gold eyes. It works better.

It felt like a positronic equivalent of a Katra in many ways, so I just gave it a pass. The whole season felt like they were slowly building up to bring Data back, especially when the golem body was brought into the picture. The idea that he would finally become human in all but the minutiae was what I was expecting by the last episode. S3 definitely delivered on that, but I still find the situation confusing.

What it actually felt like was a last minute change of plans, and that they suddenly decided to not kill off Picard in season 1. Did Patrick Stewart sign on for 3 seasons, originally? I swear I read that he initially wanted a "one and done" deal.

 

[Lord Garth]

What it actually felt like was a last minute change of plans, and that they suddenly decided to not kill off Picard in season 1. Did Patrick Stewart sign on for 3 seasons, originally? I swear I read that he initially wanted a "one and done" deal.

I'd thought about this in 2020. I'll cut-and-paste what I said back then:

April 16th, 2020

If Picard had Irumodic Syndrome for multiple seasons, that would be multiple seasons where we'd start to question whether or not he had all of his mental faculties intact. Clearly PIC is in a galaxy that's been jaded by the events of DS9 and what happened afterwards, so do you really want the person fighting for what's right in this changed "world" to be someone who's lost his mind and who no one should take seriously? I don't think you do. I don't think most people do.​

So either they have to find a miracle cure for the Irumodic Syndrome, or he has to die if there's truly no cure. In which case, they made a synthetic body for him and now they can take Picard into a place next season that isn't him moping about 20 years ago.

Whether or not it would've been better to just have a cure or to resurrect him is a debatable question with no right or wrong answer. It depends on what they do with it next season. But if you can accept Spock being resurrected through something as wonky as Genesis, then you can accept Picard being resurrected by having his essence transferred into another body. Something that's more grounded in science-fiction than the fantasy that was TSFS.
​

More succinctly: I think it was a way to cure Picard of his Irumodic Syndrome without actually having to come up with a cure for it, so that Irumodic Syndrome could be and remain uncurable.

EDITED TO ADD: And it was a way to have Picard be able to have a heart-to-heart with Data. Something missing from NEM and -- even though it wasn't the same -- something closer to being along the lines of Kirk and Spock at the end of TWOK, where there was a heart-to-heart there as well. Having Picard and Data both at the crossroads of death put them on equal footing and in a "neutral" setting to be able to interact with each other.

Data's sacrifice in NEM and his farewell to Picard in PIC S1 combined together are the equivalent of Spock's sacrifice and farewell to Kirk in TWOK.

Data's revival in PIC S3 from what was downloaded into B-4, and the integration of his mind into his new body, is the equivalent of Spock's arc in TSFS.

When Data is fighting with Lore in his own mind and finding his way back to himself, I think it's the dramatization of Data fighting his way back to who he was. It's kind of like Spock finding his way back to himself in TVH. This last analogy is the broadest of broad strokes.