How did you picture the prequel era/story before the prequels?
- Thread starter Venardhi
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It wasn't a lack of interest so much that he found the whole process of writing to be gruelling. He was most comfortable behind a camera lens and in the editing bay.
Indeed he's said multiple times in interviews since the late 70's right up until now that he's always had a low opinion of his own talents when it comes to plotting and dialogue. His strength is in story construction and the visuals.
It wasn't that he didn't want others involved (he did and many were in various capacities) it was that he'd tried collaborating with other writers in the past prior to Star Wars and it never worked out. The writers he'd tried to work with were (understandably) more interested in putting their own stamp on something than doggedly translating someone else's vision.
Writing it himself was the only way he could get close to what he'd had in mind. It was a compromise, not a preference.
He did indeed ask Spielberg to direct and was turned down. Zemeckis too IIRC. Make of that what you will.
He did later hire Spielberg as a pre-viz director for RotS and it's rumoured he's mostly responsible for conceptualising the visuals for the Anakin/Obi-Wan fight and the Order 66 montage.
I think I also read somewhere back when they were still being made that Lucas hired Fisher (who for those that don't know was a very accomplished script doctor) to do a dialogue polish on all three of the prequels, for all the good that apparently did.
Yes! I was aware of Spielberg's limited involvement in RotS, but not of Carrie Fisher's script doctoring the prequels, though. A very interesting and informative post, Reverend! Thanks, a lot.
I thought Anakin would look more like Sebastian Shaw (Darth Vader unmasked in RotJ).
I thought we would see the Millenium Falcon more - being used by main characters.
I thought Bail Organa would actually be fighting along-side Obi-Wan.
I thought there would be more Jedi battling, not just one scene at the end of Attack of the Clones.
I didn't expect the 'newness' look to just about everything. Not that it was wrong, I just didn't expect it. I expected things to be worn down a lot more.
In 1984, I got a catalog for movie replicas. It explicitly said that the next Star Wars movie (a prequel) would be called "Enter a Dark Lord". That would have fit with the plot of The Phantom Menace. And I think it sounds better than "The Phantom Menace".
A chromed ship was a nice touch. "Chrome Companies' were in one of the original drafts of Star Wars.
Part of the problem was expectations. The EU books didn't match what George Lucas had intended all along. If they had, I think a lot of people wouldn't be as disappointed. It's not that the stories were bad. They just weren't Star Wars. The Heir to the Empire series and Dark Empire were probably the best of the bunch - not in the least because they picked up where the movies left off.
I didn't have as much trouble with the prequels as other people, but I also became very disappointed with the EU after a while when it became clear that some of the authors didn't have a clue what Star Wars was or wanted to change it. Especially stories that counteracted or contradicted The Force. When the Yuuzhan Vong came along, I gave up. That was basically the author saying: "I don't know how to write about The Force, so I'm going to make aliens that can't be felt through The Force".
"The Force is what gives a Jedi his powers" - without The Force, the Jedi have no powers.
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If you don't think there's anything wrong with the Anakin/Padme "romance" scene dialogue in AotC then I suggest you go have your ears checked out. Have them check for a concussion too while you're at it!
Lets be clear: there's cheesy dialogue and then there's dialogue that sounds like it was written by an over ambitious 12 year old who'd read the soliloquy from 'Romeo and Juliet' and assumed that's how people actually talk to each other, but didn't understand any of the big words. It also didn't help that there was *zero* romantic chemistry between Portman & Christensen.
The "romance" in "The Attack of the Clones" was atrocious, BUT ... was it ever quotable:
"I'm haunted by the kiss you should have never given me ..."
HAHAHAHA!!!! Seriously, how did that even pop into Lucas' head, that line? Never in a million years would that assemblage of verbosity have ever crossed my mind! This line is so artificial and so curious, in its own way, that I would've probably suggested Lucas keep it in, even if he were on the fence about it being in there. It's unintentionally funny and completely memorable. I did feel for Natalie Portman, however, because she's made to squirm and everything this whole time in a way that looks very forced and unnatural. It only compounds the problems of the scene, rather than adding anything dramatic.
Annie's "Sand Speech" delivered to an awestruck Padme, on the other hand had no business making the cut. Lucas seems determined to offer up some psychology for Vader's lack of interest in Tatooine (sp?), later on, and why he never searched for Obi-wan, or his kid there. In any case, wasn't Lucas married, or at least seeing someone? Couldn't he have consulted her, kind of, on what a young woman in Padme's position might long to hear? Being compared to sand ... to dirt, basically ... even with the spin favouring her, in that context, couldn't have been all that flattering. Even a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away ...
"I'm haunted by the kiss you should have never given me ..."
HAHAHAHA!!!! Seriously, how did that even pop into Lucas' head, that line? Never in a million years would that assemblage of verbosity have ever crossed my mind! This line is so artificial and so curious, in its own way, that I would've probably suggested Lucas keep it in, even if he were on the fence about it being in there. It's unintentionally funny and completely memorable. I did feel for Natalie Portman, however, because she's made to squirm and everything this whole time in a way that looks very forced and unnatural. It only compounds the problems of the scene, rather than adding anything dramatic.
Annie's "Sand Speech" delivered to an awestruck Padme, on the other hand had no business making the cut. Lucas seems determined to offer up some psychology for Vader's lack of interest in Tatooine (sp?), later on, and why he never searched for Obi-wan, or his kid there. In any case, wasn't Lucas married, or at least seeing someone? Couldn't he have consulted her, kind of, on what a young woman in Padme's position might long to hear? Being compared to sand ... to dirt, basically ... even with the spin favouring her, in that context, couldn't have been all that flattering. Even a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away ...
I think the romances in most, nearly all, recent sci-fi/fantasy films have been pretty derided, regarded as either ineffective or annoying.
I thought Hayden Christensen was too young to handle the Shakespearean tone of the fireplace scene in which Anakin had declared his love. It reminded me of James McAvoy and Keira Knightley's failed attempts (in my opinion) to replicate the stylized movie dialogue of the 1930 and 40s in the 2007 movie, "ATONEMENT". Like the two characters, Christensen was too young and/or inexperienced to handle such stylized dialogue (which is from a form of literature called "courtly love", by the way). Natalie Portman's dialogue, I noticed, wasn't written in that particular style.
As for Anakin's comment about sand . . . I still don't understand what the big ruckus is about. I believe that many fans are still nitpicking, when it comes to that particular line. Or perhaps they needed one last reason to rant against the Prequel movies. I don't know.
As for Anakin's comment about sand . . . I still don't understand what the big ruckus is about. I believe that many fans are still nitpicking, when it comes to that particular line. Or perhaps they needed one last reason to rant against the Prequel movies. I don't know.
Or, people don't legitimately like the line. Not everyone who critiques the prequels needs a reason to rant and hate on it. Some things are genuine reactions of "that line doesn't work."
Which, goes back to chemistry and delivery. In my opinion, Anakin and Padme's romance encapsulates an interesting idea that Lucas had of more courtly love. The overall concept and presentation, I'm ok with. However, the lack of chemistry between Anakin and Padme is what stands out to me.
As for the rest of the PT, the visuals are amazing to me. The overall story is interesting as well, and it presented some new things that hadn't been thought of in the Star Wars universe before. The idea of trade wars, and droid armies were all fun concepts that I really liked in the basic outline.
However, Anakin and Obi-Wan are not what I visualized, and did little to endear me to them in a protagonist way. And, that's very frustrating.
Which, goes back to chemistry and delivery. In my opinion, Anakin and Padme's romance encapsulates an interesting idea that Lucas had of more courtly love. The overall concept and presentation, I'm ok with. However, the lack of chemistry between Anakin and Padme is what stands out to me.
As for the rest of the PT, the visuals are amazing to me. The overall story is interesting as well, and it presented some new things that hadn't been thought of in the Star Wars universe before. The idea of trade wars, and droid armies were all fun concepts that I really liked in the basic outline.
However, Anakin and Obi-Wan are not what I visualized, and did little to endear me to them in a protagonist way. And, that's very frustrating.
I'd actually go so far to say that the real problem with the romance plot isn't Anakin but Padme. With Anakin we see something of his upbringing, first as a slave then as a cloistered warrior monk so we can understand why he's weird and awkward around a girl he's pretty much idolised from the moment he laid eyes on here.
With Padme on the other hand we have very little to go on in regards to what drives and motivates her so we're given very little context as to why she might fall for an obnoxious teen several years her junior. This isn't a problem in TPM since Anakin is a child so the mutual affection is both innocent and compassionate. The trouble really arises in AotC where Padme's character really isn't developed any further. This is compounded in RotS where she's less of a character and more of an abstraction.
Over the years I've gradually come to the conclusion that while intelligent and mature in her temperament and outlook, Padme is secretly hampered by an astonishing emotional naivete. It makes a certain sense when one considers she's just as much of a child prodigy as Anakin. Presumably spending most of her early childhood in educational institutions, before moving onto politics and altruism. That doesn't leave an awful lot of time for personal relationships. All of her "friends" are fellow functionaries, mentors and her personal retinue of bodyguards. All the hallmarks of a sheltered upbringing.
This is all well and good of course, but one has to do a lot of mental legwork to get there as again, the movies given us next to nothing to go on and I'm not sure Portman even came to this conclusion based on her performance. Indeed, it's only after watching TCW that this opinion fully formed in my mind, so that may very well be the main contributing factor.
Oh and I do not accept the dismissive claim that Hayden Christensen didn't have the acting chops. He may have lacked the experience to be able to work around the clunky dialogue or fully engage with Portman, but just ignore what's being said and watch his face in the moments between the words. There's real emoting and pathos there and there are two scenes in particular that jump out at me in this regard.
The first is at the beginning of RotS where Padme tells him she's pregnant. Watch his wordless reaction. You can see about five distinct emotions flash across his eyes and you can clearly trace his line of thought from shock and surprise, to unbridled joy and to dread as the full implications dawn on him. Compared to him, Portman is just phoning it in.
The other is his reaction to his assisting in the murder of Mace Windu and his submission to Palpatine's will. The first time I saw this scene way back in '04 it struck me as a bit of an implausibly sudden turnaround. But on subsequent viewings one may note that Christensen is speaking very loudly with his eyes and posture, regardless and sometime contrary to dialogue. He instantly hates Sidious and loathes himself for what he's been party too and doesn't buy a word of what he's selling, except for the single desperate hope that he can save Padme. There's even a brief glace there where you can clearly see him consider cutting Sidious down right then and there.
With Padme on the other hand we have very little to go on in regards to what drives and motivates her so we're given very little context as to why she might fall for an obnoxious teen several years her junior. This isn't a problem in TPM since Anakin is a child so the mutual affection is both innocent and compassionate. The trouble really arises in AotC where Padme's character really isn't developed any further. This is compounded in RotS where she's less of a character and more of an abstraction.
Over the years I've gradually come to the conclusion that while intelligent and mature in her temperament and outlook, Padme is secretly hampered by an astonishing emotional naivete. It makes a certain sense when one considers she's just as much of a child prodigy as Anakin. Presumably spending most of her early childhood in educational institutions, before moving onto politics and altruism. That doesn't leave an awful lot of time for personal relationships. All of her "friends" are fellow functionaries, mentors and her personal retinue of bodyguards. All the hallmarks of a sheltered upbringing.
This is all well and good of course, but one has to do a lot of mental legwork to get there as again, the movies given us next to nothing to go on and I'm not sure Portman even came to this conclusion based on her performance. Indeed, it's only after watching TCW that this opinion fully formed in my mind, so that may very well be the main contributing factor.
Oh and I do not accept the dismissive claim that Hayden Christensen didn't have the acting chops. He may have lacked the experience to be able to work around the clunky dialogue or fully engage with Portman, but just ignore what's being said and watch his face in the moments between the words. There's real emoting and pathos there and there are two scenes in particular that jump out at me in this regard.
The first is at the beginning of RotS where Padme tells him she's pregnant. Watch his wordless reaction. You can see about five distinct emotions flash across his eyes and you can clearly trace his line of thought from shock and surprise, to unbridled joy and to dread as the full implications dawn on him. Compared to him, Portman is just phoning it in.
The other is his reaction to his assisting in the murder of Mace Windu and his submission to Palpatine's will. The first time I saw this scene way back in '04 it struck me as a bit of an implausibly sudden turnaround. But on subsequent viewings one may note that Christensen is speaking very loudly with his eyes and posture, regardless and sometime contrary to dialogue. He instantly hates Sidious and loathes himself for what he's been party too and doesn't buy a word of what he's selling, except for the single desperate hope that he can save Padme. There's even a brief glace there where you can clearly see him consider cutting Sidious down right then and there.
Some of the problem arise with the expectations of the fan base and what they all thought the prequels should be. Despite this of course Lucas has to take most of the flak for some down right stupid ideas and poor execution. The foundations were all there but some of the filling was clearly lacking with the uneven dialogue and CGI usage being the main culprits IMO. With that in mind here are my changes because I had no pictures of what the prequels should of been since I was only 12 and a newbie Star Wars fan in 1999 when Episode 1 came out so it's all hindsight for me...
Episode I
* Jar Jar is gone, he is a shockingly bad character even by the standards of characters aimed at children. Lucas had failed to consider that the younger demographic was far smarter and mature in 1999 than they were in 1977, 1980 or 1983 + how toxic the character would be to the now fully grown up and older fans of the OT. Jar Jar (change his name too) should of been for me, a character closer to The Mariner from Westworld if you are going to play the water/land species the Gungans were. There was no need at all to have them as CGI and they could of been less comedic and more warrior like race especially if you plan on doing the big ground battle at the end of the movie. You have him as socially awkward , more ignorant than stupid and not a clumsy oaf.
* Anakin (Different actor) should of been older by at least a few years (Teenager) so first and foremost the romantic angle between him and Padme is clear from the start and looks less creepy. Also it allows for greater comparisons between him and Luke though unlike Luke, Anakin needs an brash edge to him similar to Han Solo (ANH) to show the small hints of a rogue like character. Also explain he has some pilot experience for Watto to explain his actions later in the film.
* Yoda of course should of been CGI from the start as the puppet simply didn't work this time around. However saying that of course the prequels used CGI far too much and it seemed Lucas was a little lazy as Director at times. Episode One did have a better balance than Episode 2 though when it came to this.
* I liked how they introduce R2D2 but C3PO SHOULD NOT of been in the prequels until the scene in Episode 3, where Captain Antilles is given them. I would have changed that so CP30 was already on that ship and only R2 was being handed over. Anakin/Vader building C3PO was stupid writing and such a forced way to keep the character around. It also saves us from C3PO awful performance in Episode 2.
* The space and ground battles in the final act needed to show more, especially the battle in orbit of Naboo, it didn't have the same thrill and kick as what we saw in ANH or ROTJ.
* I don't mind the political stuff and it was interesting to see how Palpatine got himself into higher office but you could of beefed up with the story more. I would of shown the early signs of a civil war in Episode one with a movement to break away already in the early stages and even shown the character Dooku rallying against the Jedi Order for being stale and out of touch in supporting a clear corrupt senate.
I'll do Episodes 2 and 3 in different posts cause this is long enough already.
Episode I
* Jar Jar is gone, he is a shockingly bad character even by the standards of characters aimed at children. Lucas had failed to consider that the younger demographic was far smarter and mature in 1999 than they were in 1977, 1980 or 1983 + how toxic the character would be to the now fully grown up and older fans of the OT. Jar Jar (change his name too) should of been for me, a character closer to The Mariner from Westworld if you are going to play the water/land species the Gungans were. There was no need at all to have them as CGI and they could of been less comedic and more warrior like race especially if you plan on doing the big ground battle at the end of the movie. You have him as socially awkward , more ignorant than stupid and not a clumsy oaf.
* Anakin (Different actor) should of been older by at least a few years (Teenager) so first and foremost the romantic angle between him and Padme is clear from the start and looks less creepy. Also it allows for greater comparisons between him and Luke though unlike Luke, Anakin needs an brash edge to him similar to Han Solo (ANH) to show the small hints of a rogue like character. Also explain he has some pilot experience for Watto to explain his actions later in the film.
* Yoda of course should of been CGI from the start as the puppet simply didn't work this time around. However saying that of course the prequels used CGI far too much and it seemed Lucas was a little lazy as Director at times. Episode One did have a better balance than Episode 2 though when it came to this.
* I liked how they introduce R2D2 but C3PO SHOULD NOT of been in the prequels until the scene in Episode 3, where Captain Antilles is given them. I would have changed that so CP30 was already on that ship and only R2 was being handed over. Anakin/Vader building C3PO was stupid writing and such a forced way to keep the character around. It also saves us from C3PO awful performance in Episode 2.
* The space and ground battles in the final act needed to show more, especially the battle in orbit of Naboo, it didn't have the same thrill and kick as what we saw in ANH or ROTJ.
* I don't mind the political stuff and it was interesting to see how Palpatine got himself into higher office but you could of beefed up with the story more. I would of shown the early signs of a civil war in Episode one with a movement to break away already in the early stages and even shown the character Dooku rallying against the Jedi Order for being stale and out of touch in supporting a clear corrupt senate.
I'll do Episodes 2 and 3 in different posts cause this is long enough already.
I don't recall what I thought the prequels should have been at the time. When TPM came out I was deep into my "Star Trek is better than Star Wars" phase. I sat through multiple showings, that I had been taken to, with my eyes shut.
My story for the prequels starts with an older Anakin as mentioned by others. No pod-racing, but through other means Anakin exemplifies his ability as a pilot. The Jedi are few and far between, mythical; considered a hokey religion. I would have clones on both sides of the war. Perhaps the Republic already uses a clone army instead of the "we can't have an army" we got in GL's prequels.
Anakin's fall to the dark side would be much more Gollum-like (if that's even a thing). We, the audience would be lead to believe Anakin and Darth Vader are two different people. Though we would never see them together at the same time. That way when Obi Wan tells his point of view we're all nodding our heads. Then when we get to the reveal in ESB everyone's like "WUHT?!" I know that a lot of people don't care about that. But the prequels should present the story in a consistent fashion, as if they had been there from the beginning.
We wouldn't see that Anakin's wife had twins so we wouldn't know that Luke and Leia are siblings, until the RotJ reveal.
The first movie would show the start of the clone wars. Then the second would be in the middle of it. The third film would show the end of the clone wars and Darth Vader hunting down the Jedi knights
My story for the prequels starts with an older Anakin as mentioned by others. No pod-racing, but through other means Anakin exemplifies his ability as a pilot. The Jedi are few and far between, mythical; considered a hokey religion. I would have clones on both sides of the war. Perhaps the Republic already uses a clone army instead of the "we can't have an army" we got in GL's prequels.
Anakin's fall to the dark side would be much more Gollum-like (if that's even a thing). We, the audience would be lead to believe Anakin and Darth Vader are two different people. Though we would never see them together at the same time. That way when Obi Wan tells his point of view we're all nodding our heads. Then when we get to the reveal in ESB everyone's like "WUHT?!" I know that a lot of people don't care about that. But the prequels should present the story in a consistent fashion, as if they had been there from the beginning.
We wouldn't see that Anakin's wife had twins so we wouldn't know that Luke and Leia are siblings, until the RotJ reveal.
The first movie would show the start of the clone wars. Then the second would be in the middle of it. The third film would show the end of the clone wars and Darth Vader hunting down the Jedi knights
The prequels just needed more passion and focus from Lucas and a recast Anakin Skywalker. Otherwise, George was very successful at bringing a new aesthetic to Hollywood. A synthetic style of artistry that younger generations really embraced as their own. It made The Original Trilogy look and seem very dated and suggested that it was time to accept that brand of movie-making couldn't cut it, anymore. I see all of that in the prequels. I don't hate them for any of that. I just hate Lucas dodgy writing and shoddy directing. Surrounding himself with Behind the Scenes "Yes Men" really hurt the project ...
Captain Nebula said:
It was "you served my father", not "you served with my father".
Jax said:
I doubt that. The problem is that Jar Jar is far worse than any of the characters featured in 1977, 1980 or 1983. There wasn't any noteworthy lack of discernment in evidence on the part of the younger demographic in those years, at least in terms of their reaction to Star Wars; they were simply embracing a quality product. And anecdotal evidence suggests that Jar Jar was embraced by many in that demographic.
Oh wow. Let me get this straight. You felt it was necessary to insult me, because I don't agree with your views?
That's not a problem. That's merely your opinion . . . and the opinion of other fans. However, there are STAR WARS fans who actually like Jar Jar. Or understand him.
I liked Jar-Jar fine, until he stepped into that big ol' pile of dewback shit, barefooted and all that. A faux pas from which he never recovered. Hell ... later on in the movie, in fact, he even gets farted on by a, uh ... whatever the balls that is. A space camel of some kind, maybe. But he raised his tail and pointed his dirty ass right at Binks, that's how much he thought of him. And Jar-Jar just turns to the camera and goes, "P.U.'sa!" With Jar-Jar Binks, anal themes are a constant companion ...
Oh brother.
Yeah . . . just as he has to take the flak for the poor ideas, poor execution and other mistakes in the Original Trilogy. Or Abrams has to take the flak for his mistakes and poor decisions in "The Force Awakens". Gareth Edwards has to do the same for "Rogue One". What's your point?
But you know what? If you disliked the Prequel Trilogy . . . fine. I just hope that you don't make the mistake that many bashers do by confusing your opinion as a fact. I try not to do the same with my negative opinions of anything I don't like in the STAR WARS movies . . . especially "The Force Awakens".
