How did the Dominion hold Betazed?
- Thread starter SoM
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You bring up a point, I think: is telepathy faster than warp speed?
^^^^^^^^
Would it matter? The tenth fleet was obviously far enough away that they couldn't respond in time, at least ten hours if you assume that they didn't try to attack before the planet was already taken over.
Even if they had had some sort of forewarning, I don't think it would have helped much. Maybe some people could have gotten into shelters and some lives would have been saved. But the Jem'Hadar would still have taken over the planet in short order. Maybe it's a prejudice, but the Betazoids don't strike me as the most asskicking people in the Federation.
Would it matter? The tenth fleet was obviously far enough away that they couldn't respond in time, at least ten hours if you assume that they didn't try to attack before the planet was already taken over.
Even if they had had some sort of forewarning, I don't think it would have helped much. Maybe some people could have gotten into shelters and some lives would have been saved. But the Jem'Hadar would still have taken over the planet in short order. Maybe it's a prejudice, but the Betazoids don't strike me as the most asskicking people in the Federation.
Frankly, I think Betazed might be child's play to hold.
If the Betazoids could telepathically perceive the absolute ruthlessness of their Dominion overlords—their willingness to kill flagrantly and indiscriminately if they deemed it necessary—such a pacifistic people would be cowed into submission almost to a person.
Hell, Troi's probably one of the ten toughest Betazoids around.
Ain't that frightening?
If the Betazoids could telepathically perceive the absolute ruthlessness of their Dominion overlords—their willingness to kill flagrantly and indiscriminately if they deemed it necessary—such a pacifistic people would be cowed into submission almost to a person.
Hell, Troi's probably one of the ten toughest Betazoids around.
Ain't that frightening?
There was Lon Suder on Voyager. Alas, he wasn't around.
Actually, I can't find any kind of reference or hint at Betazoid pacifism in "Menage a Troi" or any other episode of TNG, DS9 or VOY.
From what we can observe, Betazoids are no different from humans except for the telepathy thing. And apparently, telepathy is no real obstacle in causing pain to others. So I'd categorize Betazoids in the same "fierce warriors when needed" pigeonhole with humans as default, unless some sort of contrary evidence presents itself...
Timo Saloniemi
From what we can observe, Betazoids are no different from humans except for the telepathy thing. And apparently, telepathy is no real obstacle in causing pain to others. So I'd categorize Betazoids in the same "fierce warriors when needed" pigeonhole with humans as default, unless some sort of contrary evidence presents itself...
Timo Saloniemi
I don't think Betazoids can read Changelings, at least Lwaxana didn't seem able to read Odo. Perhaps the Jem'Hadar have similar immunity. They are a created race, after all. Perhaps the Founders gave them a similar brain structure to the Ferengi or the Dopterians.
On the other hand, Earth is full of what we would consider "aliens". There's no reason why people from all over the Federation couldn't have been living on Betazed at the time.
On the other hand, Earth is full of what we would consider "aliens". There's no reason why people from all over the Federation couldn't have been living on Betazed at the time.
Actually, the "Betazoids as pacifists" angle is obliquely supported during "In the Pale Moonlight":
"What's worse, Betazed's own defense systems are obsolete and undermanned."
While that certainly isn't conclusive, by any means, when coupled with their arguably effete pretentions to superiority, it seems reasonable to infer that as a rule they find such duties distasteful, and shun them if possible. Races inclined to make certain of a strong defense at any cost would not have facilities in that state—especially not during a war.
"What's worse, Betazed's own defense systems are obsolete and undermanned."
While that certainly isn't conclusive, by any means, when coupled with their arguably effete pretentions to superiority, it seems reasonable to infer that as a rule they find such duties distasteful, and shun them if possible. Races inclined to make certain of a strong defense at any cost would not have facilities in that state—especially not during a war.
Then again, the British and, to a lesser degree, French Empires, arguably among the most warlike players in the 1930s, maintained largely obsolete defenses and offenses (the navies excluded) right until the start of WWII. Their position as top aggressors had allowed them to concentrate on a military machine geared towards the policing of colonies, rather than opposing near-equal belligerents close to home. Manpower was sorely lacking as well, due to policies based on the idea that these nations of born warriors would be able to make do with less, and to raise a credible fighting force out of the general populance if need really be.
The Italians under Mussolini, bellicose as ever and engaged in multiple colonial conflicts of greater severity than the British ones, in turn simply weren't able to move from "outdated" to "updated" no matter how much they wished, as their economy wasn't geared for it.
So I wouldn't necessarily read the obvious into what Sisko says, as the exact opposite might be true. It's not as if the Klingons ever actually had cutting edge military technology, either.
Timo Saloniemi
The Italians under Mussolini, bellicose as ever and engaged in multiple colonial conflicts of greater severity than the British ones, in turn simply weren't able to move from "outdated" to "updated" no matter how much they wished, as their economy wasn't geared for it.
So I wouldn't necessarily read the obvious into what Sisko says, as the exact opposite might be true. It's not as if the Klingons ever actually had cutting edge military technology, either.
Timo Saloniemi
But when Betazed is captured, the war has been a fact of life for many months, which is plenty of time to acquire volunteers—especially the equivalent of "National Guardsmen" who've no desire to join Starfleet, but could handle a four-hour shift running scans and pushing buttons—and shore up defenses. In addition, the Federation does have cutting edge technology, so your analogy isn't really as applicable as it might appear at first glance.
I've not stated or implied that this take must be so, but instead said that it's a reasonable inference ... and one that solves the problem rather neatly.
I wasn't aware that there was a "problem", though...?
Dominion invades. Dominion holds. Where do we run into a problem? That's what they do, whether the victims be Betazoids, Klingons, Cardassians or Maquis.
We could infer that the Betazoids were pacifists begging to be conquered, or lethal psi-killers confident in the superiority of their minds over all matter including planetary defense fortresses. We don't have a pressing need to infer either of these, though, as Betazed could have been a run-of-the-mill case no different from other Dominion conquests.
Timo Saloniemi
Dominion invades. Dominion holds. Where do we run into a problem? That's what they do, whether the victims be Betazoids, Klingons, Cardassians or Maquis.
We could infer that the Betazoids were pacifists begging to be conquered, or lethal psi-killers confident in the superiority of their minds over all matter including planetary defense fortresses. We don't have a pressing need to infer either of these, though, as Betazed could have been a run-of-the-mill case no different from other Dominion conquests.
Timo Saloniemi
I would assume that a race that can so easily sense the emotions and thoughts of another race to be pacifist by nature. After all, killing someone would have a much more visceral impact on somebody if they could sense the fear and pain that their actions caused.
You would probably have the odd psycho who enjoyed it, but I would imagine that the vast majority of the species would be more pacifistic than their non-telepathic counterparts.
You would probably have the odd psycho who enjoyed it, but I would imagine that the vast majority of the species would be more pacifistic than their non-telepathic counterparts.
There is, if you hold that a race of telepaths should outmaneuver its enemies at every turn.
I agree with you, though. I've never had a problem with the Dominion holding Betazed with ease—as I said above.
I still it likely that they're for the most part pacifists, though, and have shown why. Could I be wrong? Sure. Is it more likely I'm right? I say yes.
There's a surprise.
I didnt get to watch DS9 much so maybe someone can fill in the blanks was the fall of Betazed a surprise blow to the Federation or was there a more drawn out Dominion campaign to capture it?
Also the idea that Betazoid wasnt prepared to defend itself as membership in the Federation almost always meant security.
Hawaii is secure as a member of the union but that doesn't mean China couldn't attack and hold it for a day.
Also the idea that Betazoid wasnt prepared to defend itself as membership in the Federation almost always meant security.
Hawaii is secure as a member of the union but that doesn't mean China couldn't attack and hold it for a day.
The war had been going on for about six months. The Dominion attacked from a sector that Starfleet Intelligence ignored, and they caught the Tenth Fleet out of position on a training exercise. What's worse, the planets own defense systems were obsolete and undermanned.
The planet was theirs in less than ten hours.
The planet was theirs in less than ten hours.
