how did the Defiant survive?

[Mr Silver]

it's not the Borg way to destroy things that pose them no threat.

Except for the times that they do. Like in the Wolf 359 flashback in Emissary, the Saratoga is crippled after the first few hits and Sisko orders evacuation. Then after Sisko's escape pod leaves, the Borg target and destroy the Saratoga, despite the fact that at this point it's just floating wreckage anyway. And there were still other ships putting up a fight.

Like you say - except for the times they do. Who knows the variables of that situation because it wasn't fully covered on screen. We just saw the aftermath and a brief scene of the battle.

I mean Saratoga could have been blocking the Borg's line of vision to other ships that were attacking it. It's not out of the realm of possibilities that other ships in the battle used an abandoned ship as a tactical cover.

 

[Timo]

Exactly, the Defiant is meant to be mass produced. It's small, manouverable and powerful for its size.

Umm, she's not small, she's the size of a Miranda in most shots. And unlike the Miranda, she's the latest in high tech, so probably way too expensive to be mass-produced. At the cost of one Defiant, Starfleet might well build three Mirandas...

She's no more maneuverable than the average DS9 Miranda, either. Not that it would matter much when dodging plays no role in Star Trek combat...

Being powerful for her size probably just adds to the expenses of building her.

Had Starfleet ever decided to proceed with the original Defiant construction, these ships could well have been silver bullets, built in small numbers and dispersed across the UFP so that everywhere the Borg popped up, there'd be at least a theoretical chance of having one of these to meet the enemy. Other, smaller and cheaper ships might have been mass-produced, while still others could have been larger than the Defiant and armed with even more decisive weapons. All those together would have formed the "new battlefleet" that Sisko was talking about...

I mean Saratoga could have been blocking the Borg's line of vision to other ships that were attacking it.

Or the Saratoga blew up by accident.

We have no evidence that the Borg would have destroyed her. Rather, the Borg immobilized her, at which point her warp core got damaged and eventually blew; the Borg weren't shown or told to be firing at the ship at that time. It's not the fault of the Borg Collective if Starfleet builds substandard warp cores!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr Silver]

At the cost of one Defiant, Starfleet might well build three Mirandas...

Or even more, given that decomissioned Miranda class starships could be updated with the latest technology and relaunced if Starfleet needed the extra ships.

 

[mupps]

Umm, she's not small, she's the size of a Miranda in most shots. And unlike the Miranda, she's the latest in high tech, so probably way too expensive to be mass-produced. At the cost of one Defiant, Starfleet might well build three Mirandas...

There has always been problems with the scaling of the Defiant against other ships, there is even an article on Ex Astris about it http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/defiant-problems.htm But if you wish to believe the generally agreed size, then the Defiant's are still smaller by length, beam and most considerable height agaonst a Miranda class.

She's no more maneuverable than the average DS9 Miranda, either. Not that it would matter much when dodging plays no role in Star Trek combat...

I'd respectfully disagree, we have seen Defiant's displaying a considerable amount of agility that I'd struggle to see anything other then the smallest Star Fleet ships compete with.
Valiant basically skin dancing across that Dominion battleship for one.

Being powerful for her size probably just adds to the expenses of building her.

She is a specialised class, they'd have to know she'd being used under limited circumstances.

Had Starfleet ever decided to proceed with the original Defiant construction, these ships could well have been silver bullets, built in small numbers and dispersed across the UFP so that everywhere the Borg popped up, there'd be at least a theoretical chance of having one of these to meet the enemy. Other, smaller and cheaper ships might have been mass-produced, while still others could have been larger than the Defiant and armed with even more decisive weapons. All those together would have formed the "new battlefleet" that Sisko was talking about...

Then they were wrong, if you parcel out DC ships all over the place hoping to have one or 2 close by for an incursion you've basically thrown your silver bullet out the window.
The best use for over armed FAC is to swarm the enemy.

The DC's best usage would be buddy pairs/flights/SQN's, all based around defending vital nodes, ie major population centers which are the Borgs targets.

Look at how the PLAN (Chinese navy) use their Type 022 "Houbei" missile boats who's pretty much only task is to sink a USN aircraft carrier.
The PLAN are willing to trade entire SQN's of this FAC's for that job, SF would probably feel the same way. better a load of small Defiant class ships with 50/60 crew each then a couple of dozen Akira, Sovereigns, Norway etc classes with thousands of crew.

Synchronised missile firing drills.

 

[mupps]

At the cost of one Defiant, Starfleet might well build three Mirandas...

Or even more, given that decomissioned Miranda class starships could be updated with the latest technology and relaunced if Starfleet needed the extra ships.

Well going by all we have to go on, ie canon sources they didn't, they built more Defiants.
So a calculation in universe was made and a decision reached....more over gunned hot roads!

 

[Timo]

...This assuming the Defiant is anything like a small attack craft. If instead she's the only AEGIS destroyer or aircraft carrier or attack submarine type in the Starfleet arsenal, then sending one in each theater of operations is the sensible thing to do.

As far as naval analogies go, SSN would indeed be a pretty good one here. The Defiant has the stealth of a submarine, suffers from similar speed limitations, fires equally short-ranged antiship weapons, and has to undertake modifications or embark special weapons to be useful in ship-to-shore missions.

Of course, if navies of today could afford to build SSNs like rowboats, it might make sense to send a hundred of them in a simultaneous attack against an enemy flotilla. But the SSN is not only expensive to build, it's built with these expenses in mind, so that it in fact is optimized for solo operations.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[mupps]

...This assuming the Defiant is anything like a small attack craft. If instead she's the only AEGIS destroyer or aircraft carrier or attack submarine type in the Starfleet arsenal, then sending one in each theater of operations is the sensible thing to do.

As far as naval analogies go, SSN would indeed be a pretty good one here. The Defiant has the stealth of a submarine, suffers from similar speed limitations, fires equally short-ranged antiship weapons, and has to undertake modifications or embark special weapons to be useful in ship-to-shore missions.

Of course, if navies of today could afford to build SSNs like rowboats, it might make sense to send a hundred of them in a simultaneous attack against an enemy flotilla. But the SSN is not only expensive to build, it's built with these expenses in mind, so that it in fact is optimized for solo operations.

Timo Saloniemi

But that's the thing Timo, the defiant was never meant to be a multiple use vessel like an AEGIS destroyer, AC or SSN. She was built to fight generally and the Borg in particular.

She was not meant to do planetary surveys, diplomatic missions or the other Day to day taskings of a regular SF ship.

Even a modern day SSN has more missions task's then "go out and kill a ship" that is all, SOF support, hydrographic work, intelligence gathering....even biological surveys these days.

Edited, and even Aegis destroyers and SSN's are paired up when working in support of a CBG.

Plus only the USS Defiant itself had the "stealth" part, every other Defiant class ship had no cloak.

I'm still leaning towards the DC being miss used.

 

[Timo]

a multiple use vessel like an AEGIS destroyer, AC or SSN.

I wasn't speaking of the AEGIS as a multi-use vessel, but solely as the only existing asset capable of countering the air threat against a carrier group. A unique specialist that could never be replaced by any other ship type, quite regardless of the assorted other abilities of the AEGIS ship.

The SSN doesn't have too many uses, either. Sinking of ships and sneaking into areas where sigint work can be carried out, plus occasionally (and very rarely, and usually only when the sub is suitably modified) doing special forces stuff - all that is right down the Defiant alley!

Plus only the USS Defiant itself had the "stealth" part, every other Defiant class ship had no cloak.

...As far as we know. Perhaps the only reason Starfleet built further Defiants was because they made for such good cloakships? One'd just have to be careful not to let anybody see Starfleet using those cloaks. But that's sort of inherent in the use of cloaks!

I'm still leaning towards the DC being miss used.

Well, Sisko only used it because Starfleet didn't give him any other ships for a suicide mission to the heart of the Dominion. Certainly a case of deliberate misuse there. After that, the dedicated Borg-fighter saw minelaying and escort duty in between armed recce assignments - probably aggravated misuse with intent! Although we have to remember that Starfleet did designate her "escort", so she may have met the mission criteria. Or then not, if that was pure smokescreen. Hard to tell when we have never seen another dedicated escort vessel.

...Although the Klingons did use their small BoPs as escorts, perhaps indicating that ships with boresight-only, short-range guns are good for the job. Difficult to see why: those mean that the escort has to leave the convoy every time it wants to confront an attacker. A steadily puttering "arsenal ship" that can fire long range interception weapons (photon torpedoes) in every direction without ever leaving the convoy would appear to be a more workable solution, and possibly easier to build; one could just convert a transport ship for the purpose.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

Or the Saratoga blew up by accident.

We have no evidence that the Borg would have destroyed her. Rather, the Borg immobilized her, at which point her warp core got damaged and eventually blew; the Borg weren't shown or told to be firing at the ship at that time. It's not the fault of the Borg Collective if Starfleet builds substandard warp cores!

After Sisko's escape pod launches from the Saratoga, Sisko looks back at the ship and see the cube fire on it and destroy it. Which seems really unnecessary, given the warp core was already critical so the ship would have blown up anyway.

 

[Deks]

Well, the collective's behavior from those days apparently changed later on.
Or it's possible they decided to employ different tactics with humans (essentially destroying their ships instead of simply disabling them).

 

[cwl]

Exactly, the Defiant is meant to be mass produced. It's small, manouverable and powerful for its size.

Umm, she's not small, she's the size of a Miranda in most shots. And unlike the Miranda, she's the latest in high tech, so probably way too expensive to be mass-produced. At the cost of one Defiant, Starfleet might well build three Mirandas...

She's no more maneuverable than the average DS9 Miranda, either. Not that it would matter much when dodging plays no role in Star Trek combat...

Being powerful for her size probably just adds to the expenses of building her.

Had Starfleet ever decided to proceed with the original Defiant construction, these ships could well have been silver bullets, built in small numbers and dispersed across the UFP so that everywhere the Borg popped up, there'd be at least a theoretical chance of having one of these to meet the enemy. Other, smaller and cheaper ships might have been mass-produced, while still others could have been larger than the Defiant and armed with even more decisive weapons. All those together would have formed the "new battlefleet" that Sisko was talking about...

I mean Saratoga could have been blocking the Borg's line of vision to other ships that were attacking it.

Or the Saratoga blew up by accident.

We have no evidence that the Borg would have destroyed her. Rather, the Borg immobilized her, at which point her warp core got damaged and eventually blew; the Borg weren't shown or told to be firing at the ship at that time. It's not the fault of the Borg Collective if Starfleet builds substandard warp cores!

Timo Saloniemi

the Miranda is larger in every respect. length, width, height and mass.

and while the tech in the defiant is probably expensive it's not as if Starfleet continue to produce Miranda class ship. it's ancient. its role is there primarily to make up the numbers. you can't just compare a miranda straight up with the a defiant, the defiant is far more powerful. 3 mirandas would be a complete waste as they are so obsolete. a Defiant could probably destroy 3 without too much difficulty. plus whether starfleet has the ability to produce the mirandas as technology has changed so much is anyone's guess. it would be like the navy producing a ww2 destroyer today.

 

[Saquist]

Exactly, the Defiant is meant to be mass produced. It's small, manouverable and powerful for its size.

Umm, she's not small, she's the size of a Miranda in most shots. And unlike the Miranda, she's the latest in high tech, so probably way too expensive to be mass-produced. At the cost of one Defiant, Starfleet might well build three Mirandas...

She's no more maneuverable than the average DS9 Miranda, either. Not that it would matter much when dodging plays no role in Star Trek combat...

Being powerful for her size probably just adds to the expenses of building her.

Had Starfleet ever decided to proceed with the original Defiant construction, these ships could well have been silver bullets, built in small numbers and dispersed across the UFP so that everywhere the Borg popped up, there'd be at least a theoretical chance of having one of these to meet the enemy. Other, smaller and cheaper ships might have been mass-produced, while still others could have been larger than the Defiant and armed with even more decisive weapons. All those together would have formed the "new battlefleet" that Sisko was talking about...

I mean Saratoga could have been blocking the Borg's line of vision to other ships that were attacking it.

Or the Saratoga blew up by accident.

We have no evidence that the Borg would have destroyed her. Rather, the Borg immobilized her, at which point her warp core got damaged and eventually blew; the Borg weren't shown or told to be firing at the ship at that time. It's not the fault of the Borg Collective if Starfleet builds substandard warp cores!

Timo Saloniemi

the Miranda is larger in every respect. length, width, height and mass.

and while the tech in the defiant is probably expensive it's not as if Starfleet continue to produce Miranda class ship. it's ancient. its role is there primarily to make up the numbers. you can't just compare a miranda straight up with the a defiant, the defiant is far more powerful. 3 mirandas would be a complete waste as they are so obsolete. a Defiant could probably destroy 3 without too much difficulty. plus whether starfleet has the ability to produce the mirandas as technology has changed so much is anyone's guess. it would be like the navy producing a ww2 destroyer today.

I've read information on Memory Alpha that said that Defiant's size was supposed to 120 meters "regardless" of what the fans say.

However we "the fans" know that much of what we see on screen doesn't match with that and not even the model supports the 120 meter Defiant because it implies 2 t0 3 additional decks bellow the ship's centerline. But I've always equated Defiant to Mirand's similar size about 20% smaller and a bit shorter because of the lack of long engines.

I've tried to fit Defiant into a Fleet Role but it's hard becaues there doesn't seem to be hard and fast rules to even how ships today work...or they just can't be equated to Star Trek ships.

I guess to me...if it's meant to seek and destroy it's a destroyer. But then so many other ships are. I guess they were right just to call it a warship.

 

[cwl]

the Defiant is more like 150m- 170m. which still makes it smaller than a miranda.

 

[Keith1701]

It's a tough little ship.

Very True-----She is a tough little ship.

 

[mupps]

the Defiant is more like 150m- 170m. which still makes it smaller than a miranda.

The Defiants were also about half the tonnage of a Miranda class weren't they?

 

[Timo]

No way of telling; the only ships for which the mass is even approximately known are the Intrepid class and the unrefitted Constitution class.

If warp coils are a substantial element in ship mass, then it might be worth noting how much bigger the ones of the Defiant are in comparison with what could fit inside a Miranda nacelle. Judging by onscreen schematic views, that is. But those might exaggerate or belittle certain elements. (Plus, such schematics only show at most four decks for the Defiant, when dialogue confirms the existence of a fifth full-height deck and an onscreen turbolift network diagram refers to a sixth.)

After Sisko's escape pod launches from the Saratoga, Sisko looks back at the ship and see the cube fire on it and destroy it. Which seems really unnecessary, given the warp core was already critical so the ship would have blown up anyway.

Again, the ship might have been lost by accident. The cutting beam could simply have been carving out yet another element of interest for assimilation, but was a bit late and didn't finish its job before the ship was destroyed.

When the Borg shoot to kill, they don't need two shots. See the death of the Melbourne (Excelsior class) in the same episode!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kemaiku]

The addition of ablative armour reinforced her further.

Exactly. Each time we see her hull hit by the Borg weapons fire, she twisted on axis from the impact but no penetration occured, and the hull "burned" and embered only on the surface.

The armour seems to have blocked any possible hull breaches, the other ships were struck, ripped open, secondary explosions and core breaches tore them apart from the inside.

The Defiant was hit by a lot of energy and blunt impacts from the weapons fire, but managed to deflect enough to survive.

 

[The Badger]

And unlike the Miranda, she's the latest in high tech, so probably way too expensive to be mass-produced. At the cost of one Defiant, Starfleet might well build three Mirandas...

Not canon, but the DS9 tech manual states that in its initial Borg suppression role there might have been just six Defiant class ships built. Whether or not this was to be the entirety of the anti-Borg fleet, or just one element, it does suggest that the Defiants are not considered mass-production craft.

There are also references to some components, including the crystals for the phaser cannons and the ablative armour itself, being slow and difficult to mass produce.

 

[Satyrquaze]

^I think we've seen far too many Defiant-class vessels for there to only be six in all of Starfleet, even double that number.

Defiant, Valiant, Sao Paulo, the two unnamed Defiant-class ships seen in "Message in a Bottle" cannot be any of the previous three, the Defiant that assisted in escorting USS Voyager back to Earth...

 

[Timo]

Then again, only the original Defiant and the Valiant of the above lot would have been built to be Borg-fighters. The others would in all probability be later keels, built for a wholly different job. And perhaps to very different specs, too - they might lack ablative armor (as its presence on the Defiant came as a surprise to Leyton's people in "Paradise Lost") and probably would lack cloaks, and perhaps quantum torpedoes as well (since no torpedo action took place in "Message in a Bottle").

Six of the ships might have sufficed against the Borg if they had worked as planned. Sixty might be a good counter to the Dominion as matters turned out, and not even six hundred might make a difference against the Borg in final analysis.

Timo Saloniemi