How big are the other major powers in the Alpha Quadrant?

[T'Girl]

... and Romii, or Rom II (as I like to think of it) is either there merely representatively, or is a second star system.

If I'm right about the scale, then Romulus and Romii could be two distinct separate star systems, rotating around a common axis.

The two stars being approximately 9.1 billion miles apart.

Romulus being the home system of a fair sized interstellar empire and yet being so close to the neutral zone could be owing to this (complete conjecture). Towards the end of the Earth - Romulan war, Earth forces had conquered nearly half the existing empire, and had advance to less than a light year of the home system. With the majority of their main battle fleet destroyed the Romulans were facing having Earth forces over run their home system.

The Romulans had three main options. Be destroyed. Capitulate. Or agree to a negotiated peace treaty that favored Earth, but left them some empire.

The Romulan waited as long as they could, then negotiated. The resulting neutral zone basically cut the old empire in half, with the formally centrally place Romulus now nearly on the border.

Earth keep what they already held, the other side of the neutral zone..

.

 

[Phily B]

As much as I enjoy these discussions, a big problem with Trek canon is that things are briefly mentioned then forgot about then contradicted by later information. I always got the impression that the Federation was a mass of various worlds and a combination of various smaller empires that have lots of little colonies within Federation space. That's what Enterprise seems to imply, but later series we see nothing of this. Do Federation worlds just stop building starships and only build Starfleet mandated ships?

I can't see the Klingon Empire being anywhere near the size of the Federation, nor the Romulans but they still compete militarily quite easily. Same with the Cardassians, albeit not as much. If we take the Federation as in TOS, I can buy the Romulan Empire being quite a bit smaller with two main systems and a few colonies around like in that map. I assume they had beef with Starfleet/Earth but may not have attacked an Andorian ship for example.

From what we know and have seen of the Federation, their scope and size they really should be able to defeat any of the other major powers in a war handily.

 

[Guy Gardener]

(I believe I am making this up, right now freestyle.) The Klingons (who have been in space since the 16th century) don't colonize, they conquer. The High Council have no interest in building or maintaining infrastructure. It's a very Borg like attitude. This would limit their expansion if they won't even bother with resource rich worlds that do not have a fightable indigenous life forms living on them.

Romlans (Who left Vulcan when Christ was teething) like Vulcans, and we have no reason to believe other wise, can only have children every 7 years, which would mean that it takes them 9 times longer than a pack of humans to fill up a planet to maximum capacity and consider expanding their borders.

Humans breed like rats and will live any where like rats. Humans are rats.

 

[Timo]

If each square is 6.5 billion miles

That's guesswork based on guesswork about the nature of "maximum speed", one of the least definable aspects of Star Trek. What the map itself shows is that each square in that grid is 2,000 units per side (as per that rather obvious scale bar that is 2.5 squares long and features the number "5,000"). What units those might be, we really have no idea, as all the really obvious ones such as mile, kilometer, astronomical unit, lightyear or parsec are poor fits to the dialogue or the plot progression. But the choice of scale seems optimized for showing the RNZ, which is more or less exactly one grid square thick!

Why have a scale bar 5,000 units long, when that doesn't exactly match anything on the map? Might be as simple as 10,000 being too big for the map (obscuring too much of it), and 1,000 being too small to be easily read (typing "1,000" on a font small enough not to exceed the length of the bar would make it blurry). Still looks odd.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

As much as I enjoy these discussions, a big problem with Trek canon is that things are briefly mentioned then forgot about then contradicted by later information

While it's not possible in every instance, with a little bit of creative thought the vast majority of discrepancies can be reconciled.

I always got the impression that the Federation was a mass of various worlds and a combination of various smaller empires that have lots of little colonies within Federation space

Nothing says that Federation member all join as individual planets/star systems. I think that the Federation would be an assemblage of republics, empires, kingdoms, confederacies, nation/states, etc.

Do Federation worlds just stop building starships and only build Starfleet mandated ships?

We do see ships in Starfleet that have different styles of design. The Oberth class being one example, distinctive hull and engine design. And in the world today few countries can build a naval vessel above the size of a large patrol boat, they contract out the construction of large ships to the countries that can.

If a interstellar power wants a cruiser, they have it built at Mars.

I can buy the Romulan Empire being quite a bit smaller with two main systems ...

The United Kingdon is relatively small, but their military is stronger than many larger nations..

That's guesswork based on guesswork ...

Yes, completely and thoroughly. A supposition that let me explore a concept.

and features the number "5,000"

An indication of local rainfall perhaps?

.

 

[Anwar]

As much as I enjoy these discussions, a big problem with Trek canon is that things are briefly mentioned then forgot about then contradicted by later information. I always got the impression that the Federation was a mass of various worlds and a combination of various smaller empires that have lots of little colonies within Federation space. That's what Enterprise seems to imply, but later series we see nothing of this. Do Federation worlds just stop building starships and only build Starfleet mandated ships?

I can't see the Klingon Empire being anywhere near the size of the Federation, nor the Romulans but they still compete militarily quite easily. Same with the Cardassians, albeit not as much. If we take the Federation as in TOS, I can buy the Romulan Empire being quite a bit smaller with two main systems and a few colonies around like in that map. I assume they had beef with Starfleet/Earth but may not have attacked an Andorian ship for example.

From what we know and have seen of the Federation, their scope and size they really should be able to defeat any of the other major powers in a war handily.

Back in TOS, the idea was that the Federation was really the "Earth Federation", a benign Terran Empire started by Humans (who were one of the first to invent the Warp Drive) around the same time the Klingons and Romulans both got (or got back in the Romulans' case) into space with the 3 all expanding until they ran into one another.

Difference being that while the Romulans and Klingons outright conquered any aliens they ran into, the Federation offered to make them weak partners in their Empire.

So the TOS Federation was really just a Human Empire to oppose the Romulan Empire and Klingon Empire. This is why we saw nearly all Humans in Starfleet, all Starfleet ships were of similar Earth design and had Earth names, etc.

 

[T'Girl]

Back in TOS, the idea was that the Federation was really the "Earth Federation", a benign Terran Empire started by Humans ...

This was Roddenberry's original idea, it was Dorothy Fontana who created the Federation as a multi-species interstellar conglomeration.

I don't have a problem with a ongoing "Human Federation" that has a separate existence from the UFP, while still having a membership too.

 

[Anwar]

This was Roddenberry's original idea, it was Dorothy Fontana who created the Federation as a multi-species interstellar conglomeration.

I don't have a problem with a ongoing "Human Federation" that has a separate existence from the UFP, while still having a membership too.

Nothing in TOS really supports the Multi-Species thing though, that doesn't really become clear until the TNG era. In fact, what we see in TOS supports the Terran Empire thing more.

 

[Phily B]

Yeah, that's my thing too. You never see, for example, other species ships in TNG/DS9. You'd expect the Vulcans to have a vast fleet if Starfleet has that many ships, but we don't see even one. In fact we see in DS9 an entire starfleet ship of Vulcans, which leads me to believe the Federation is absolutely massive when you consider all its members. If we took the original TOS concept, then it makes a bit more sense.

I buy the Romulan Empire/Klingon Empire being of a similar size to Starfleet/Earth if the Federation was a loose alliance like it seems in TOS, but in later shows it just comes across as a solid alliance of worlds that all contribute, build Starfleet ships, contribute to the greater good etc etc.

 

[Mytran]

@T'Girl, that's some excellent reasoning there, nicely explaining the oddity of have Romulus and Romii so close to the NZ.

The whole issue with scale and the RNZ was discussed a little while ago too.

Shall we take a closer look at the one piece of visual evidence we have for the Romulan Neutral Zone? Thanks to modern HD, the markings on the map are clear. Masao Okazaki has reproduced the map in detail:

http://www.st-minutiae.com/graphics/academy/history162/map_1_1.jpg

I realise that this was just a visual aid to guide the episode's action but I can't help wondering - what scale is the grid at?

Timo has already suggested that the "scale" bar label is 2.4 grid squares long and which doesn't neatly caculate into anything, but what if each segment itself is a section of "5000" of something? Then, each square is divided into 6 sections.

5,000 x 6 = 30,000 units of something, but what?

Throughout TOS, different measuring systems are used freely and without preference such as feet, inches, metres, miles, kilometres, light years, parsecs, even A.U.s! So the units on the scale bar really could be anything. Let's try light years:

1 Light Year = 9,460,528,400,000 kilometres
half a L.Y. = 4,730,264,200,000 kilometres

So, no joy from the metric system. But if we use miles:

1 Light Year = 5,878,499,810,000 miles
half a L.Y. = 2,939,249,905,000 miles

Half a light year is just under 3 trillion (3,000,000,000,000) miles. If each of the 6 divisions of a grid square represents 500 billion miles then each of the units that the "5000" refers to would be 100 million miles.

So, does a grid square really measure about half a light year along each side? If so, it would make for a very thin neutral zone! Also a very dense star field across the map, even assuming a three-dimensional viewpoint. For example, most of the squares have 2 or 3 stars featured. The Galaxy just ain't that full!


Maybe we should look at a different measurement unit, for example:

1 Parsec = 30,856,775,800,000 kilometres

If each of the 6 divisions of a grid square represented 5 trillion kilometers, then each of the units that the "5000" refers to would be a billion kilometers. A whole grid square would be 30 trillion (30,000,000,000,000) kilometers, not too far off a Parsec.

This makes the neutral zone about 1 Parsec deep (a comfortable distance from Romulan Space) and spreads those stars out a lot more. Plus we have a neat metric system with each unit onthe chart representing a nice round number (one billion kilometres)

 

[T'Girl]

Timo has already suggested that the "scale" bar label is 2.4 grid squares long and which doesn't neatly caculate into anything, but what if each segment itself is a section of "5000" of something? Then, each square is divided into 6 sections.

There is a pointer on the scale, and the pointer (and not the entire scale) could be what is "5000." The pointer is at 8⅔, so each segment would be 577 units of whatever composes the 5,000. The side of a grid square (6 segments) would be 3,462, which could be conveniently rounded to 3,500.

(this is what happens when I don't have a date for Friday night)

 

[Timo]

The existence of the pointer sort of points to dynamic rather than static information. What about the image could be dynamic? Well, the movement of the starship - perhaps this is a tachometer, or an ETA counter, with the scale "redlining" at the left triangle ("too much speed" or "we're gonna be late") and a less severe orange warning prior to that.

Or then it's simply the zoom counter, giving the scale of the current view somehow.

OTOH, what Kirk at this particular situation might worry about would be the vital stats of the outposts (but we learn they have no direct access to those), or his ability to talk to HQ (and we do hear of a rare comm delay, even though this area has a solid human presence and should thus hook up to the regular, instantaneous commnet nicely enough - perhaps the lag is due to Romulan jamming that increases as the ship approaches the RSE?).

As for numerology, if the box (plus its putative dark borders) equals 2.5 grid squares sharp, and one box thus is 2,000 units, we could even be speaking of entire sectors here - 20 ly on the side. Each outpost would then guard one sector (with OP 6 and its sector getting a special label on the display for some reason), the RNZ would be easily thick enough to hold entire star systems as established elsewhere, and the one oddity would be the very high speed of the hero ship but in the TOS environment of very high maximum/emergency speeds indeed!).

Or then the 2000 could be a multiple or division of the 20 ly sector in a decimal fashion, for a systematic effect, so that the local tactical grid might be a 100x or 1000x magnification of the general 20 ly grid. The outposts could then be in meaningful tactical touch with each other.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

And we still have to remember that Kirk himself said the purpose of the Neutral Zone was to keep Romulus and Remus separate from the rest of the Galaxy.

 

[T'Girl]

There, did Kirk mean separate from the rest of the Milky Way galaxy?

Or possibly separate from the "civilized galaxy" ie the Federation?


.

 

[Drone]

As much as I enjoy these discussions, a big problem with Trek canon is that things are briefly mentioned then forgot about then contradicted by later information. I always got the impression that the Federation was a mass of various worlds and a combination of various smaller empires that have lots of little colonies within Federation space. That's what Enterprise seems to imply, but later series we see nothing of this. Do Federation worlds just stop building starships and only build Starfleet mandated ships?

I can't see the Klingon Empire being anywhere near the size of the Federation, nor the Romulans but they still compete militarily quite easily. Same with the Cardassians, albeit not as much. If we take the Federation as in TOS, I can buy the Romulan Empire being quite a bit smaller with two main systems and a few colonies around like in that map. I assume they had beef with Starfleet/Earth but may not have attacked an Andorian ship for example.

From what we know and have seen of the Federation, their scope and size they really should be able to defeat any of the other major powers in a war handily.

Yeah, that's my thing too. You never see, for example, other species ships in TNG/DS9. You'd expect the Vulcans to have a vast fleet if Starfleet has that many ships, but we don't see even one. In fact we see in DS9 an entire starfleet ship of Vulcans, which leads me to believe the Federation is absolutely massive when you consider all its members. If we took the original TOS concept, then it makes a bit more sense.

I buy the Romulan Empire/Klingon Empire being of a similar size to Starfleet/Earth if the Federation was a loose alliance like it seems in TOS, but in later shows it just comes across as a solid alliance of worlds that all contribute, build Starfleet ships, contribute to the greater good etc etc.

Is it possible that there is a tenet in Federation policy that stipulates that all ships specifically representing said organization are tacitly part of Starfleet and that as a matter of efficiency of production, capabilities, identification and a number of other factors, that they will all hew to Starfleet specifications. This however certainly doesn't preclude Federation members from having their own fleets or conglomeration of ships for whatever use the culture deems necessary and naturally of their own native design. If any of these "home" ships engage in conduct inimical to Federation precepts, sanctions would of necessity need to be levied against that planet's authority.

Perhaps, once again my relative lack of knowledge of Trek foundations may make this contention obviously inaccurate on a very basic level, but I suppose I simply wanted to throw it out to see if it might have some reasonable merit.

 

[T'Girl]

You'd expect the Vulcans to have a vast fleet if Starfleet has that many ships, but we don't see even one.

We do hear of Vulcan defense ships, presumably armed, in one episode of TNG. And of a Vulcan starbase 50 lightyears from DS9 (take me out to the holosuite). During TOS there was mention of Tellarite ships.

.

 

[Timo]

....Yet whether those would in any way differ from the ships Kirk and Picard flew, we can't tell, as we never saw them.

We have seen a couple of Vulcan ships in the UFP era (Intrepid in the remastered version of "Court Martial", T'Kumbra in "Take Me"), and those were of the standard saucer-and-nacelles design.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SPCTRE]

Romlans (Who left Vulcan when Christ was teething) like Vulcans, and we have no reason to believe other wise, can only have children every 7 years, which would mean that it takes them 9 times longer than a pack of humans to fill up a planet to maximum capacity and consider expanding their borders.

I think this theory is consistent with on-screen evidence

 

[Guy Gardener]

Except that you use factorials to calculate projected population (Remember the Tribbles.) not multiplication.

Humans are rats.

 

[FormerLurker]

Until you realize that there is a significant difference between mating and breeding. Spock had to take a mate. Nothing was ever said about Spock having to father a child. And the onscreen evidence supports this as well.