How about a respectful religious vs non-religious discussion?

[TrickyDickie]

I feel at least partially responsible for the other thread being locked down and it was not my intention to have the entire discussion brought to an end.

So, I thought I would open up a new thread here in case anyone wanted to continue.

I think that when anyone feels looked down upon, controlled, and manipulated, sooner or later there is going to be lashing out against whomever or whatever is doing it. I feel that both sides have been equally at fault and I am certainly not excluding myself in that. It's definitely a hot button topic and people can get worked up very soon.

I would just like to start over.

One aspect that was not discussed was exorcisms. Bringing Ouija boards into it, demons that are said to have come from those or from elsewhere seem only able to be successfully exorcised by Catholic priests. Why would that be? And if demons have supernatural powers, how is it that words, water, and a cross have such a strong effect?

 

[auntiehill]

Oh......let's not.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Just make the saving throw against wisdom and don't forget any relevant modifiers.

“Audiences know what to expect, and that is all that they are prepared to believe in.”
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I feel at least partially responsible for the other thread being locked down and it was not my intention to have the entire discussion brought to an end.

So, I thought I would open up a new thread here in case anyone wanted to continue.

I think that when anyone feels looked down upon, controlled, and manipulated, sooner or later there is going to be lashing out against whomever or whatever is doing it. I feel that both sides have been equally at fault and I am certainly not excluding myself in that. It's definitely a hot button topic and people can get worked up very soon.

I would just like to start over.

One aspect that was not discussed was exorcisms. Bringing Ouija boards into it, demons that are said to have come from those or from elsewhere seem only able to be successfully exorcised by Catholic priests. Why would that be? And if demons have supernatural powers, how is it that words, water, and a cross have such a strong effect?

The thread was already walking the path to being closed before your post, because as I said, the serious discussion (such as it was) had pretty much been played out:

OP was still participating, it hadn't gotten out of control except for the incident yesterday, political and controversial discussions are allowed in Miscellaneous no matter how many times people incorrectly think otherwise, and if I had shut it down it would have been spun as the big mean atheist closing down religious freedom of speech. I was considering closing it since it had been pretty much played out, but I wanted to give the OP one more chance for a "rebuttal," such as it is, before doing so. But since he's not been back, I think I'll close it soon.
Challenge for all atheists

At any other time, I would have no issue with this thread being posted, but coming directly on the heels of the other thread being closed, and giving your loudly expressed annoyance with my mod decisions, this feels more like an attempt at pushing my buttons than generating reasonable discussion, especially since it treads right over the Ouija Board nonsense again instead of trying for any kind of substantive discussion.

I'll leave it open, but it's on a short leash, and you better not bring up any information you've been told not to again, even if the poster comes here and gets all preachy again.

 

[Kemaiku]

 

[TrickyDickie]

The thread was already walking the path to being closed before your post, because as I said, the serious discussion (such as it was) had pretty much been played out:



At any other time, I would have no issue with this thread being posted, but coming directly on the heels of the other thread being closed, and giving your loudly expressed annoyance with my mod decisions, this feels more like an attempt at pushing my buttons than generating reasonable discussion, especially since it treads right over the Ouija Board nonsense again instead of trying for any kind of substantive discussion.

I'll leave it open, but it's on a short leash, and you better not bring up any information you've been told not to again, even if the poster comes here and gets all preachy again.

No, I am seriously not trying to push your buttons. I think I see what likely happened. Sometimes words are interpreted by one person as having a certain tone....when the person who said them didn't mean them that way at all. I was not feeling loud annoyance at all. Even in my pm to you, I didn't use bold print, italics, exclamation points by the handful, etc. So I'm genuinely sorry if my tone came across in a different way than I intended.

As for the Ouija boards, exorcisms, demons, etc....something goes on, at times. I thought that the 'what' of it was worth discussion. Some psychologists have stamped it as mental psychosis and nothing more. But, in some cases is there something more at work....perhaps from the 'natural world'....that we just don't understand yet? There is a lot that is in the area of the unexplained that is quickly lumped in with junk....but here and there are things that could use just a bit more looking into before they are 100% discarded. Just my opinion....

 

[Locutus of Bored]

It doesn't require anything supernatural or even psychosis, and it's not unexplained. It's simply the Ideomotor Effect.

 

[TrickyDickie]

It doesn't require anything supernatural or even psychosis, and it's not unexplained. It's simply the Ideomotor Effect.

Okay, sure, that would be a reasonable explanation for a lot of cases....but not necessarily every single case.

If a candlestick holder slides across a table forcefully, and stops suddenly, without falling off the edge....and there is no one near it when it happens....how do we explain that? Especially after examining everything carefully with the scientific method....floor, table, candlestick holder, etc.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

If a candlestick holder slides across a table forcefully, and stops suddenly, without falling off the edge....and there is no one near it when it happens....how do we explain that? Especially after examining everything carefully with the scientific method....floor, table, candlestick holder, etc.

Nothing like that has ever been demonstrated with replicable results without there being some kind of natural influence on the object or fakery involved; a magnet underneath the table, an earthquake moving it, fishing wire and special effects on a video, etc. If this was something that could be documented and replicated we'd see countless published papers about it.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

There are no demons. A desire for something bigger than ourselves seems to need bad stuff as well as a benevolent parent god.

People do terrible things, if you want to fight evil you don't need to make up demons to do it.

 

[BillJ]

Religion is fine to me, until it is used as a weapon to deprive people of rights, in some instances their lives.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Religion is fine to me, until it is used as a weapon to deprive people of rights, in some instances their lives.

Yes that's what needs to be the focus of anti-religious sentiment imo, not folk believing in things others think are dumb.

 

[TrickyDickie]

Nothing like that has ever been demonstrated with replicable results without there being some kind of natural influence on the object or fakery involved; a magnet underneath the table, an earthquake moving it, fishing wire and special effects on a video, etc. If this was something that could be documented and replicated we'd see countless published papers about it.

That's actually my point....if something like that happens just once in someone's presence and it's not repeated and everything logical is ruled out, what do we do with it?

 

[Gov Kodos]

So, I can can't explain it, therefore aliens/demons/fairy farts?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Why do we even have this thread? People here have been very respectful to each other. Even about religious issues.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Because it's more interesting than what you ate or drank?

 

[Gov Kodos]

Because it's more interesting than what you ate or drank?

We could combine the threads and discuss the metaphorical human sacrifice and cannibalism in that eating the body and blood of Christ thing? Those Christian missionaries sure freaked when they came across the old school conservatives on that issue in Aztec culture.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Because it's more interesting than what you ate or drank?

...very true.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

That's actually my point....if something like that happens just once in someone's presence and it's not repeated and everything logical is ruled out, what do we do with it?

Anecdotal evidence can be the start of scientific investigation, but not the end of it. If you've investigated the matter thoroughly and can't replicate the results, it's time to either search for more evidence or move on to another project. The beauty of it is, you can always come back to it some other time if new evidence does present itself.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

That's actually my point....if something like that happens just once in someone's presence and it's not repeated and everything logical is ruled out, what do we do with it?

You do know about probability, right?! Like, the odds of something like this happening are insert-a-numberillion against one? So, it could happen, only the chances are low, therefore it will only happen once or twice (or never, that's a possibility, too) over a long period of trials, and the butterfly effect dictates that minute details can be responsible for different results. That's why science demands you replicate the results. Otherwise, it's just a fluke.

Btw, I apologize to any actual scientists if I oversimplified here, or only touched upon factors, or used wrong terminology.