House of Mogh

[c0rnedfr0g]

How big is the House of Mogh? How far does the extended family reach (in terms of degrees of separation from Mogh, the patriarch)? How many Klingons do we think are in this House? And since Worf is the rightful heir, and Mogh is dead, shouldn't it be the House of Worf? Speaking of which, how did Worf learn he even belonged to the House of Mogh, if he was raised on Earth and the Klingon government declared Worf had no living relatives? And when Worf, heir to the House of Mogh, instead joined the House of Martok, did all the House of Mogh Klingons get absorbed into Martok's House? Or did the House of Mogh decide on a new heir? Or was there already a new patriarch installed after Mogh had died (and if so, why was it still called the House of Mogh, unless that was just Worf and Kurn still calling it that)? And shouldn't Lorgh have made sure Kurn was raised by the House of Mogh, since he would've been the rightful heir (not knowing of Worf's existence)?

Anybody have the answers?

Thanks

 

[The Wormhole]

And when Worf, heir to the House of Mogh, instead joined the House of Martok, did all the House of Mogh Klingons get absorbed into Martok's House? Or did the House of Mogh decide on a new heir?

When Worf joined the House of Martok, the House of Mogh no longer existed having been, having been disbanded by Gowron after Worf failed to support the invasion of Cardassia in The Way of the Warrior. All of House of Mogh's property an holding were confiscated by the High Council, and Kurn lived as a peasant until his memories were wiped and he became Rodek, adopted son of Noggra, DS9 Sons of Mogh.

 

[Tenacity]

If the Romulans hadn't killed his father, and given that Worf was the elder son, when Worf succeded his father as the new head of the house, would Worf have changed his name to Mogh?

 

[1001001]

How big is the House of Mogh?

It’s a 3 bed, 2 bath one story, ranch style. Open floor plan, vaulted ceilings, and a Targ run in the backyard.

 

[USS Firefly]

If the Romulans hadn't killed his father, and given that Worf was the elder son, when Worf succeded his father as the new head of the house, would Worf have changed his name to Mogh?

I believe it would change in house of Worf

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The head of a Klingon House has the right to change its name to whatever they want. Or leave it as is.

When the House of Mogh was still active, Worf - as its head - would have been within his rights to change it to the House of Worf (or any other name he wanted), but Worf most likely kept the existing name to honor his father.

It’s a 3 bed, 2 bath one story, ranch style. Open floor plan, vaulted ceilings, and a Targ run in the backyard.

Nice house. Good tea.

 

[MAGolding]

I suppose that Worf could have been Worf XIII or something and Mogh might have been Mogh XV or something and possibly the family was named after the original founder Mogh I who lived many centuries ago. Or possibly the name of the family changed many times but became the House of Mogh in the time of Mogh V or something, and the name wasn't changed despite all the different names of later leaders.

Since we don't know much about the practices of the Klingon noble houses we do not know whether:

1) the House of Mogh was named after Mogh the father of Worf when Mogh the father of Worf was its head and because Mogh the father of Worf was its head.

Or:

2) the House of Mogh was named after an earlier leader named Mogh.

Or:

3) The House of Mogh was named after some quality that Klingons admire in a person and Worf's father was named after that desired quality and also after the name of the house.

Or:

4) The House of Mogh was named for some other reason.

in the DS9 episode "The House of Quark" one Klingon noble house is renamed whenever it gets a new head, going from the House of Kozak to the House of Quark to the House of Grilka.

But comparing the practices of that house to those of the House of Mogh might be comparing apples to oranges since they might come from two entirely different cultures on Qo'noS.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

in the DS9 episode "The House of Quark" one Klingon noble house is renamed whenever it gets a new head, going from the House of Kozak to the House of Quark to the House of Grilka.

Here's how I interpret that bit:

- At the time Quark inherits the house, he obviously has a rather sketchy grasp of Klingon culture and traditions. That, coupled with his own considerable ego, would naturally lead Quark to use his own name for the house.

- When Grilka takes over, not only would it be inappropriate for the house to retain Quark's name (since he and Grilka were subsequently divorced, and of course Quark is not even a Klingon) but it wouldn't revert to the name of Kozak either; there is apparently no love lost between Grilka and her late husband. She probably considered him a hopeless drunk with little honor to his name (which is basically what we saw of him in the episode). So Grilka would be only too happy to rename the house in her name.

 

[Shawnster]

The Rizhenkos bent over backwards helping Worf remember and learn more about his Klingon heritage. They no doubt kept telling and reminding him about his biological parents, family name, parents, anything they could find or learn.

Speaking of which, how did Worf learn he even belonged to the House of Mogh, if he was raised on Earth

 

[Tim Thomason]

The Rizhenkos bent over backwards helping Worf remember and learn more about his Klingon heritage. They no doubt kept telling and reminding him about his biological parents, family name, parents, anything they could find or learn.

Plus, he was six years old when Khitomer happened, which, if Alexander Rozhenko is anything to go by, might make him in early adolescence already. And Sins of the Father establishes that he had visited the Klingon Homeworld multiple times in the past, probably with the Rozhenkos in a diplomatic capacity after relations eased between the Federation and the Empire.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

It’s a 3 bed, 2 bath one story, ranch style. Open floor plan, vaulted ceilings, and a Targ run in the backyard.

No powder room? Where will Michael Dorn get his make-up done?

 

[1001001]

No powder room? Where will Michael Dorn get his make-up done?

They don’t discuss that with outsiders.

 

[Timo]

In general, we have little reason to think that a House would be named after its current leader. Not only do we have the several contradictions, such as the House of Mogh without a Mogh or a House of Kor prominently led by a Kol even though supposedly a warrior named Kor is already a distinguished part of that House - we also have good evidence of recycling of names within a House, with multiple Durases, say.

OTOH we don't need to dismiss evidence to make it all fit. Houses can and will change name on occasion - but we would expect this to reflect great, exceptional change in light of the above. Say, the entire bloodline being disrupted would be an expected situation requiring name change. This is very much what happens in "House of Quark", with Quark taking over a House from the outside - a situation very different from Duras taking over from Ja'Rod, say. When Grilka in turn takes over from Quark, the default rules for such would apply, and would work in Grilka's favor in getting rid of the name of Kozak. No doubt Klingon House ownership changes may be back-and-forth between bloodlines in the standard case as well...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

So is not every Klingon then always associated w/ a House? Presumably, after Gowron disbanded the House and its military forces, there were hundreds (I'm guessing, unless the "military forces" merely served the House and weren't actual members of it) of former House of Mogh-ers that were now House-less. What's so stop all those Klingons from sticking together (sans assets, Worf, and Kurn) and just re-naming the House under new leadership? Or is it not uncommon for the lower-class Klingons to have no House, except that named after the head of the current immediate family?

 

[Timo]

So is not every Klingon then always associated w/ a House?

Probably not. Although the Houses may in practice control 100% of the economy, so that even all the independent players are "associated" in one way or another. Say, the Noble Houses might even formally be in charge; but even if not, all jobs might be related to Houses when one looks deep enough.

Presumably, after Gowron disbanded the House and its military forces, there were hundreds (I'm guessing, unless the "military forces" merely served the House and weren't actual members of it) of former House of Mogh-ers that were now House-less. What's so stop all those Klingons from sticking together (sans assets, Worf, and Kurn) and just re-naming the House under new leadership?

Nothing, I guess. We later learn that there are separate Noble Houses, of which the House of Martok most assuredly is not one; even if there are criteria for pitching one of the Nobles, there might be none for setting up the lesser versions.

Or is it not uncommon for the lower-class Klingons to have no House, except that named after the head of the current immediate family?

Many Klingons might actually opt to sever ties with family, in their quest for honor; disgraced relations are a burden in that respect, as we learned in "A Matter of Honor" already... The loose cannons probably would wish to seek some degree of fortune first and then establish their House complete with lodgings, underlings and a spouse. In all likelihood there's a ritual for that, a way to formally leave one's paternal House, although obviously not everybody wants to do that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The Klingon houses are only the Klingon nobility.

I would presume that people start referring to themselves as a 'House' when they own land. It's a way of transferring honor and status among relatives and officially handling transfer of estates.

There's probably more Klingons out there who are good at gaming the system 'Like Ferengi' like in House of Quark, only are better at getting away with it.

 

[uniderth]

They don’t discuss that with outsiders.

At least for six years when it will be given a nonsensical retcon in a series that nobody likes.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Klingon houses are only the Klingon nobility.

I don't think that's the case. Remember Martok? He has always been a commoner - indeed, that's why his initial application to be an officer in the KDF was rejected. He is absolutely not a noble by any means, yet he is still head of a House that bears his name.

Indeed, there have been precious few Klingons we've ever seen who could be described as nobility. Members of the House of Kor are notable exceptions:

- That House can trace its lineage back to the ancient Klingon imperial family. And they definitely love pointing that out.

- Kor himself is obviously arrogant and aristocratic. He ACTED that way when we first met him in TOS, and decades later, it was his vote which caused Martok's officer application to be rejected, simply because Martok was not of noble blood

- General Kol from DSC definitely shared that arrogance. Look at how he rejected Voq out of hand just because Voq was an albino...

On a vaguely related matter: Obviously Worf and Alexander were able to join the House of Martok, but what about Kurn's children? He had at least two daughters, as per the reference in TNG's "Firstborn" about Alexander's cousins...so when the House of Mogh was dissolved, what happened to them?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don't think that's the case. Remember Martok? He has always been a commoner - indeed, that's why his initial application to be an officer in the KDF was rejected. He is absolutely not a noble by any means, yet he is still head of a House that bears his name.

He was *born* a commoner. Now he owns land. From what little we see, Kronos is very class divided. We've only gotten brief glimpses of Klingon poverty in Sins of the Father, but it seems at least to me like only the minority own land or belong to a house that owns land.

Mogh is quite clearly a Noble, so is Grilka and all the politicians we meet on the High Council.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You don't have to be noble to be a landowner.

Mogh is quite clearly a Noble

Since we've never actually seen him, that remains to be seen.