Holographic/photonic armies?

[Vandervecken]

Why not? Just use powerful holoemitters and specially designed EMH-level holograms that kill in all kinds of ways. They wouldn't take harm from any kind of concussive force, or fire. Sure an enemy could potentially disrupt the emitters, but then, an enemy could kill live troops with projectile weapons and bombs. I'm not sure what energy fire would do to Trek holograms, but, hey, they'd be expendable compared to live troops wouldn't they? And they would NOT be made sentient by AI programming, they'd be just direct extensions of a battlefield emitter computer.

 

[Kilana2]

I don't want to resort to the literature forum in detail again. Suffice it to say, that holographic security people are already in service. So the redshirt issue can be solved.

Holographic soldiers is another matter. And the Doctor (Voyager) would certainly be appalled at the idea of holograms being cannon fodder.

And isn't there the danger of abuse? Enemies could reprogram them to turn against their masters....

Sure, there can't be physical harm done to them.

It's certainly an idea that can be discussed.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

That's one of those things where the technology in one episode isn't allowed to apply to any other episode or else it'd break the universe.

 

[Timo]

Why use "soldiers"? With photonic technology, you could do much better.

If the enemy uses soldiers, deploy a giant holographic flyswatter that crushes fifty divisions to pulp with one twist of a giant holographic hand.

If the enemy uses tanks, deploy a holographic road that wraps into a granny knot around the armored formation and crushes it to pulp.

If the enemy uses aircraft, deploy a holographic weather that tears them into pieces, fries them to crisp, melts them to slag and, yes, crushes them to pulp.

If the enemy even dares suggest invading your planet, deploy a holographic planet for them to invade, only to turn inside out and, you guessed it, crush them to pulp.

We have no evidence that creating holograms in the humanoid shape would be technologically advantageous over much larger and more versatile forms. It's just the shape that is the best applicable for benevolent interaction with humans and their machinery. For malevolent interaction, you'd steer well clear of it!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vandervecken]

Why use "soldiers"? With photonic technology, you could do much better.

If the enemy uses soldiers, deploy a giant holographic flyswatter that crushes fifty divisions to pulp with one twist of a giant holographic hand.

If the enemy uses tanks, deploy a holographic road that wraps into a granny knot around the armored formation and crushes it to pulp.

If the enemy uses aircraft, deploy a holographic weather that tears them into pieces, fries them to crisp, melts them to slag and, yes, crushes them to pulp.

If the enemy even dares suggest invading your planet, deploy a holographic planet for them to invade, only to turn inside out and, you guessed it, crush them to pulp.

We have no evidence that creating holograms in the humanoid shape would be technologically advantageous over much larger and more versatile forms. It's just the shape that is the best applicable for benevolent interaction with humans and their machinery. For malevolent interaction, you'd steer well clear of it!

Timo Saloniemi

Surely (NOT calling you Shirley!) there is a limit to what holotech can conjure up? Risa had weather control systems--no doubt other planets did. I don't think those systems were giant holoemitters.

I do agree that there are far better shapes than the humanoid for destruction, but I don't know if we can think of the holoemitters as Green Lantern rings.

 

[The Wormhole]

Surely (NOT calling you Shirley!) there is a limit to what holotech can conjure up?

Considering holodecks themselves are basically shipboard TARDISes which can even create sentient lifeforms on request (like Moriarty) I'd say no, there is no limit.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Surely (NOT calling you Shirley!) there is a limit to what holotech can conjure up?

Considering holodecks themselves are basically shipboard TARDISes which can even create sentient lifeforms on request (like Moriarty) I'd say no, there is no limit.

But the Holodeck - like the Tardis - is only bigger on the inside. One could theoretically create an entire ship built like a holodeck to allow for endless holographic security measures, but battlefield conditions planetside are a different matter. A mobile emitter has to deal with a lot more interference than a holodeck, and it has to do so with only a single emitter on relatively tiny power source.

 

[Timo]

Or then with five thousand emitters mounted on large and heavily shielded assault shuttles.

And what a field-ruggerized holoemitter may lose in finesse, it can make up for by concentrating on features that are actually needed: it doesn't matter whether a giant fist smiting the enemy really looks exactly like a fist, or remains solid for its entire surface area, or moves in a carefully set trajectory, as long as it smites.

Much of what the holodeck does is ballast anyway. Say, if a holodeck can actually project warmth (rather than fake the warm feeling by some other means when you hold a holobabe's hand), you can single out this useful capability and forget about all the rest, then use that capability to its coarsest max. It doesn't matter whether the forest the enemy is using for cover reaches 2387.2 degrees Celsius exactly or something more like 3500 degrees Celsius, as long as the feature gets the job done.

That the holodeck is capable of doing X is of course unlikely to be thanks to it being a holodeck. Rather, the designer of the holodeck made use of the fact that UFP science had come up with a way of doing X, and included X in the holodeck design - but possibly only in a version suitably downgraded for the predictable needs of the users. The basic X could be put to use without the holographic ballast, in a much deadlier fashion: the fact that we have seen X in action onboard a holodeck is simply our cue that the UFP can do X.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vandervecken]

Timo, the holodeck does add amother dimension: mobile platforms (made of photonic fields) for x, where mobility around terrain and antagonists are needed and not simply line-of-sight X projection.

 

[Ithekro]

With the power and computing needs of such technology, it be much easier and efficient just to use a phaser array.

 

[Elder Knight]

In Edgar Rice Burroughs' Thuvia, Maid of Mars (1920!), the phantom bowmen of Lothar are a formidable army despite being immaterial. They appear so realistic that their opponents convince themselves that their arrows are striking with lethal force, and die via suggestion!

I suspect that this tactic would only be effective until someone gets shot in the back and goes on fighting merrily because he doesn't realize it, and his fellows take note of this.

It is an interesting idea, though!

 

[Elder Knight]

"We have soldiers," replied Carthoris. "We of the red race are all soldiers, but we have no bowmen to defend us, such as yours. We defend ourselves."

"You go out and get killed by your enemies!" cried Jav incredulously.

"Certainly," replied Carthoris. "How do the Lotharians?"

"You have seen," replied the other. "We send out our deathless archers--deathless because they are lifeless, existing only in the imaginations of our enemies. It is really our giant minds that defend us, sending out legions of imaginary warriors to materialize before the mind's eye of the foe.

"They see them--they see their bows drawn back--they see their slender arrows speed with unerring precision toward their hearts. And they die--killed by the power of suggestion."

"But the archers that are slain?" exclaimed Carthoris. "You call them deathless, and yet I saw their dead bodies piled high upon the battlefield. How may that be?"

"It is but to lend reality to the scene," replied Jav. "We picture many of our own defenders killed that the Torquasians may not guess that there are really no flesh and blood creatures opposing them.

"Once that truth became implanted in their minds, it is the theory of many of us, no longer would they fall prey to the suggestion of the deadly arrows, for greater would be the suggestion of the truth, and the more powerful suggestion would prevail--it is law."

-- Burroughs

 

[Timo]

At the very least, an unreal fighting force would make the enemy misallocate his forces - emptying his magazines against worthless targets, exposing his positions, maneuvering into disadvantageous positions, declaring victory at defeat and defeat at victory.

But our Trek heroes tend to be skeptics all, relying on their tricorders rather than their eyes, and even then only as long as the tricorders don't give readings that are "too good"... Heck, after a few suitably drama-filled minutes, they even consider doubting their own minds! Using the tricks inherent in holography for direct offense rather than misdirection is probably more effective in general and in the long run.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[topcat]

actually the Romulans created a way to deal with issues posed by holographic army creations.
Plasma Torpedoes.
Its against the prime directive to do something like that. In the star trek magazine, they had an article on what various alien races contribute to the federation. one race is allowed to make clones. And can create half a million clone soldiers in a single month.

 

[Timo]

What do you suggest would be the connection between holographic armies and plasma torpedoes?

Or between holographic armies and the Prime Directive?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[topcat]

Purely automated weapons are not considered to be "good form" by most of star fleet. The episode on TNG when they had to deal with the automated particle fountains that were destroying a planets atmosphere, the bridge crew was most annoyed with the concept that someone would use a weapon without a human onboard to control it. Then with the fact it was being used to destroy a planets atmosphere.
That plot was stolen for the trek reboot.

On voyager its discovered the maquis sent an automated cardassian weapons platform on a mission to destroy cardassian bases, but it got sent over seas by the caretaker and was attacking random planets. When it was discovered star fleet officers had done such a thing, Janeways reaction was the typical "oh my god, how could you do such an atrocious thing like that?"

 

[Timo]

Purely automated weapons are not considered to be "good form" by most of star fleet.

What is "purely automated"? Human(oid)s would still be pushing the trigger if unleashing a holographic horde. It's no different from firing a smart missile, say.

The episode on TNG when they had to deal with the automated particle fountains that were destroying a planets atmosphere, the bridge crew was most annoyed with the concept that someone would use a weapon without a human onboard to control it.

What would that episode be? Doesn't sound familiar at all.

When it was discovered star fleet officers had done such a thing, Janeways reaction was the typical "oh my god, how could you do such an atrocious thing like that?"

And what does that have to do with the actual manner in which the atrocious thing was done? Janeway would have had the same frown on her face had Torres dropped a big rock on the Cardassians, or stabbed them.

I see no anti-automation sentiments in Starfleet other than Kirk's "The Ultimate Computer" phobia. Everybody else appeared fine with that concept. And while everybody else was proved wrong by the episode, it doesn't look or sound as if they stopped trying. In VOY, we get that fancy ship flown by four people who split the vessel at the push of a button and let two big lumps of it conduct automated combat...

Also, again, what do plasma torps have to do with this all? Or the Prime Directive?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[topcat]

Roddenberry had the "keep it simple" no complicated machines to dry you off. That was a big joke in the pilot episode where Wesley is soaking wet from the holodeck and he needs a towel..
why go to the expense of building such holographic equipment... when you can simply use the cheapest simplest weapons to do the same job

 

[JirinPanthosa]

For that to be implemented effectively you would need 29th century technology. Without the mobile emitter, you could have a holographic security force but you couldn't just project holograms wherever you want.

 

[topcat]

In the season finale of voyager when they get captured by the Kazon, they try to use a fleet of several holographic ships to help even the odds with the kazon. The holo ships had fully functional weapons that did actual damage to the kazon fleet attacking them. And in one instance a power fluctuation caused the doctor to be projected into space.
But after that happened, janeway had to be reassured mid battle that no damage had happened to the doctors program itself by the oopsie.
so that raises the question of wether holographic soldiers can be destroyed in combat. Also once voyager had been captured by the hirogen and used as a holographic training ship in a ww2 battle, complete with holographic weapons and enemies to kill. is where I get the idea the federation holds such things in very low regard.