Holodeck Matter

[votd]

I watched Ship In A Bottle the other night, and it seems that at this point in TNG the holodeck uses some kind of alternate matter to create it's simulations instead of 'collections of photons and forcefields'.

For some reason, I always thought that small inanimate objects such as paper/books/forks etc. were replicated items that could be taken off the holodeck, was this ever mentioned onscreen? If this was the case then the plan to beam the chair off the holodeck would have worked as the chair could have been replicated.

The thing that annoyed me however, was whether matter was some kind of alternate 'holodeck' matter (whatever that is), replicated 'real' matter, or photons and forcefields, it was the computer that controlled the movement of matter to simulate NPCs etc. so even if the crew could have beamed the physical form of Moriarty off the holodeck, surely it would have just crumpled to the floor dead as the 'intelligence' was and always will be running in the computer; it's not as if the computer uses alternate matter to build an entire physical body, bones, organs brain and all; the crew should have just laughed in Moriarty's face and cut the power to the holodeck (although in early TNG this seems to destroy all matter on the grid so maybe that's a bad idea).

I think the matter issue, combined with the power issue, makes the holodeck the most convoluted piece of equipment on Trek; it's a great idea, but some consistency would be nice!

 

[Captrek]

For some reason, I always thought that small inanimate objects such as paper/books/forks etc. were replicated items that could be taken off the holodeck, was this ever mentioned onscreen?

Yes. In “Encounter at Farpoint,” Wesley took some water out of the holodeck.

 

[NCC-1701-B]

yeah, wet people stay wet when they come off

 

[Anticitizen]

The idea of the Holodeck was a fun but silly one from the start. The energy requirements would be ridiculous. More realistic would have been some sort of direct brain interface, like in The Matrix. Maybe a helmet you'd wear or something that would stimulate your brain waves.

 

[MikeS]

yeah, wet people stay wet when they come off

I think a snowball came out of the holodeck one time and hit an unamused Picard. (First season Picard was such an authoritarian. )

 

[Odin]

The idea of the Holodeck was a fun but silly one from the start. The energy requirements would be ridiculous. More realistic would have been some sort of direct brain interface, like in The Matrix. Maybe a helmet you'd wear or something that would stimulate your brain waves.

Or something similar to the Borg's Unimatrix Zero from VOY

 

[Butters]

The idea of the Holodeck was a fun but silly one from the start. The energy requirements would be ridiculous. More realistic would have been some sort of direct brain interface, like in The Matrix. Maybe a helmet you'd wear or something that would stimulate your brain waves.

I dunno. I saw it as plausible but incredibly misunderstood by the writers. And the problems started with Encounter at Farpoint. Why would a holographic rock bounce off the simulation boundary? What was Data doing there anyway? Learning to whistle? He's an emotionless machine immersing himself in an illusion thats prejected at a reolution low enough for him to percieve the real world beyond.

I have big issues with the way the holodeck was used throughout the series and moriarty was just the tip the iceberg. How does the maincomputer create a lifeform on the whim of a user? It doesn't, it can't, it accounts for Data's intelligence and simulates a character that can act beyond the realm of Data's expectations, in this case, by convincing Data that it has the capacity to outwit him. Doesn't mean its a living being though. It was an interesting idea and ethical question, but the science? I would have prefered the ending to have revealed that Moriarty possessed only the illusion of consciousness.

And holdeck matter? They have transporters, replicators, holograms and forcefields and yet it never occured to anyone else in the Federation to explore the capabilities of the technology. Forcefields and projections of light and they're trying to get a transporter lock? Unbelievable.

 

[Jaespol]

The holodeck became a bit of a mess...it said it was only collection of photons and forcefields but as was mentioned actually matter was taken off the holodeck on several occasions. Also the number of people shoved into a small room but all seeing different things...I don't get it, I liked it when it was mentioned they expanded the holodeck in "The Killing Game", it suggested that you can't just have 60 people running around one holodeck without bumping into each other somehow.

 

[Hober Mallow]

The Voyager became a bit of a mess...it said it was only collection of photons and forcefields but as was mentioned actually matter was taken off the holodeck on several occasions. Also the number of people shoved into a small room but all seeing different things...I don't get it, I liked it when it was mentioned they expanded the holodeck in "The Killing Game", it suggested that you can't just have 60 people running around one holodeck without bumping into each other somehow.

That's not quite as bad as "Ship in a Bottle" on TNG where Picard, Data, and a few others wander around a holographic Enterprise, with people supposedly on and seperated by many different decks.

 

[Captrek]

The Voyager became a bit of a mess...it said it was only collection of photons and forcefields but as was mentioned actually matter was taken off the holodeck on several occasions. Also the number of people shoved into a small room but all seeing different things...I don't get it, I liked it when it was mentioned they expanded the holodeck in "The Killing Game", it suggested that you can't just have 60 people running around one holodeck without bumping into each other somehow.

That's not quite as bad as "Ship in a Bottle" on TNG where Picard, Data, and a few others wander around a holographic Enterprise, with people supposedly on and seperated by many different decks.

In Encounter at Farpoint, Geordi says “The computer fools you in other ways,” without specifying what those other ways are. Just accept that they exist.

 

[Jaespol]

The Voyager became a bit of a mess...it said it was only collection of photons and forcefields but as was mentioned actually matter was taken off the holodeck on several occasions. Also the number of people shoved into a small room but all seeing different things...I don't get it, I liked it when it was mentioned they expanded the holodeck in "The Killing Game", it suggested that you can't just have 60 people running around one holodeck without bumping into each other somehow.

That's not quite as bad as "Ship in a Bottle" on TNG where Picard, Data, and a few others wander around a holographic Enterprise, with people supposedly on and seperated by many different decks.

I meant to say "the holodeck became a bit of a mess" haha, I was thinking of a part in Voyager I had seen that day when Paris walks off the holosuite covered in oil and wrote the wrong word.

 

[votd]

The Voyager became a bit of a mess...it said it was only collection of photons and forcefields but as was mentioned actually matter was taken off the holodeck on several occasions. Also the number of people shoved into a small room but all seeing different things...I don't get it, I liked it when it was mentioned they expanded the holodeck in "The Killing Game", it suggested that you can't just have 60 people running around one holodeck without bumping into each other somehow.

That's not quite as bad as "Ship in a Bottle" on TNG where Picard, Data, and a few others wander around a holographic Enterprise, with people supposedly on and seperated by many different decks.

In Encounter at Farpoint, Geordi says “The computer fools you in other ways,” without specifying what those other ways are. Just accept that they exist.

In a random trek novel I read it mentioned that the computer puts up a screen in front of you making it look like other people/objects are further away than they are, the 'user' actually walks on some kind of futuristic treadmill, so technically Picard, Barclay and Data could be just out of arms reach of each other, but think they are on different decks etc.

I liked that idea, it's a bit like in computer games where the background is just an image until you get nearer, then individual interactive objects etc. are rendered. This buggers up the holomatter bollocks too, as Moriarty should just be a 3d image projected onto a plane in front of you until you interact with his 'physical form'.

 

[Zameaze]

The holodeck became a bit of a mess...it said it was only collection of photons and forcefields but as was mentioned actually matter was taken off the holodeck on several occasions. Also the number of people shoved into a small room but all seeing different things...I don't get it, I liked it when it was mentioned they expanded the holodeck in "The Killing Game", it suggested that you can't just have 60 people running around one holodeck without bumping into each other somehow.

I loved the holodeck, and as long as no one tried to explain it with today’s science, I could suspend my disbelief. It was ‘magic,’ and to quote Arthur C. Clarke, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. At least that’s what I hung my hat on.

 

[Argus Skyhawk]

The holodeck in the first few seasons seemed to be portrayed differently than in latter seasons. In the first two seasons we had the already-mentioned examples of holodeck matter continuing to exist outside the holodeck (another example is the paper with the Enterprise drawing that is taken out of the holodeck in "Elementary, Dear Data"), but in the latter seasons holodeck matter immediately ceases to exist when it passes through the arch, like the shoe Picard threw in "Ship in a Bottle". Also, in the latter seasons the holodeck seemed to have infinite dimensions. Yes, I know that has already been explained in this thread, but it seems in latter years no one ever needed to worry about bumping into a barrier like the one in "Encounter at Farpoint".

 

[Jaespol]

The holodeck became a bit of a mess...it said it was only collection of photons and forcefields but as was mentioned actually matter was taken off the holodeck on several occasions. Also the number of people shoved into a small room but all seeing different things...I don't get it, I liked it when it was mentioned they expanded the holodeck in "The Killing Game", it suggested that you can't just have 60 people running around one holodeck without bumping into each other somehow.

I loved the holodeck, and as long as no one tried to explain it with today’s science, I could suspend my disbelief. It was ‘magic,’ and to quote Arthur C. Clarke, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. At least that’s what I hung my hat on.

I think I agree, it was a great idea that gave us lots of great episodes, no need to over analyse it!

 

[Zameaze]

The holodeck in the first few seasons seemed to be portrayed differently than in latter seasons. In the first two seasons we had the already-mentioned examples of holodeck matter continuing to exist outside the holodeck (another example is the paper with the Enterprise drawing that is taken out of the holodeck in "Elementary, Dear Data"), but in the latter seasons holodeck matter immediately ceases to exist when it passes through the arch, like the shoe Picard threw in "Ship in a Bottle". Also, in the latter seasons the holodeck seemed to have infinite dimensions. Yes, I know that has already been explained in this thread, but it seems in latter years no one ever needed to worry about bumping into a barrier like the one in "Encounter at Farpoint".

All true, AS, but maybe holodeck technology advanced over time. Maybe the way this future technology worked depended on the skill of the individual programmer of the different scenarios. I can hear the writers now: Come on, this could be cool, work with us, work with us.

 

[Anticitizen]

A neat route they could've gone is to, instead of having such a large room, have something like Quark's holosuites, but small enough where only one person could go in at a time... maybe 10 ft by 10 ft or so. Have a row of these, and each person steps into their own chamber, and are joined together in one simulation, each person's environment simulated individually. I guess people couldn't touch each other, though... unless the touching itself is simulated!

 

[Zameaze]

A neat route they could've gone is to, instead of having such a large room, have something like Quark's holosuites, but small enough where only one person could go in at a time... maybe 10 ft by 10 ft or so. Have a row of these, and each person steps into their own chamber, and are joined together in one simulation, each person's environment simulated individually. I guess people couldn't touch each other, though... unless the touching itself is simulated!

Well, touching might not be out of the question. We know that they have transporter technology in the Star Trek future, so duplicating people in some manner isn’t beyond reason. This line of thinking could also explain (if we have to) how they could have so much room on the holodeck--the size of the holodeck world, and it's participants, could be reduced, perhaps, to the size of molecules. This would make your scenario quite workable.

 

[Butters]

A neat route they could've gone is to, instead of having such a large room, have something like Quark's holosuites, but small enough where only one person could go in at a time... maybe 10 ft by 10 ft or so. Have a row of these, and each person steps into their own chamber, and are joined together in one simulation, each person's environment simulated individually. I guess people couldn't touch each other, though... unless the touching itself is simulated!

If they can see eachother, they can touch eachother. If tables and AI are solid, other users should be too. Its a shame they never explored networked holodecks. Time delayed communications were only an issue on the occasion that the writers thought it might add tension, so real time networked simulations over subspace should be easy. Sleep with your long term partner in another sector, meet mates for beer on separate worlds, or log on to the ultimate holodeck edition of World of Warcarft.

The possibilities are endless.

 

[Anticitizen]

That is a wicked idea!