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Hirogens vs Jem'Hadar

I liked the Jem'Hadar very much. Just fantastic. I can't think of a Jem'Hadar-centric episode that was bad. From the one where they get the juvenile, which shows them the true nature of the threat that the Jem'Hadar pose to the one where Goran'Agar shows that the Jem'Hadar would be loyal without the white, to "The Ship" and so many more, these guys seem like stupid grunts at first, but come across better than Klingons.

Hirogen were good. Then they started sucking so hard when they wanted to use holodecks to hunt without killing. Just seemed off.
 
I could have ignored Voyager running into the Kazon, Hirogen or whatever all the time if they had actually been part of a well told story.

Like I said, their "Always on the move, leaving everyone behind" premise meant that the kind of "Well told story" you want couldn't be done. If they didn't know how to get home and had to stay in one place for most of the series, THEN there's something to work with.

As I said, make it more a story about the conflicts onboard Voyager, as well as the obvious quota of stand alone episodes. I think theres a problem with the established series length of seven seasons, but if the dynamic between the marquis and starfleet, and especially the relationship between Janeway and Chakotay, had been developed, then we could have easily had a well told story. Then, when the aliens do show up, they do things to the dynamic of the ship, instead of just being monsters of the week. The borg stories from TNG could have been done on Voyager with very little tweaking; it is not impossible to tell a well told story with the Voyager premiss. DS9 had just done a stay in one place/big war type series, and its last season sucked, so Im glad Voyager tried something different.

The obvious parallel is NuBSG. I dont really want to bring it up because I have not finished it yet (about a third of the way through series 3), but their premiss is very similiar to Voyager, and, so far, it seems to be working pretty well. Obviously there are differences, but the fact remains that they came up with some great stories with a very similiar concept. How about when the Kazon strand the Voyager crew it actually takes them more than a day to escape? How about they find another starfleet or marquis ship thrown to the delta quadrant by the caretaker, and we get a similiar story to the Pegasus? How about they actually experience shortages? How about they cant use the holodecks?
 
The borg stories from TNG could have been done on Voyager with very little tweaking
Not really, if VOY had used a deus ex machina to introduce the crew to the Borg and use the same Deus ex Machina to escape (which is what Q did to the ENT-D) then there's just be complaints over how contrived the whole thing was from start to finish.

And in BOBW, the plot was stopping the Borg from conquering Earth and the Federation. In VOY there is no Federation or world to defend, and they don't have an android to hack the Collective with.

With "Descent" they lured the Borg ship to a sun and used the Sun to destroy the ship, if VOY had done that then the audience would just complain that the Sun's power shouldn't be enough to destroy the Borg ship.

NuBSG's premise really isn't like Voyager, it just looks like it on the surface but it really isn't.

For starters, there really weren't any differences between the Maquis and the Fleeters to justify tensions. They should've used REAL enemies of the Federation, like the Romulans.
 
I didn't have a problem with the Hirogen switching to holodecks, after all they aren't in it for the simple killing they're in it for the rush.

It also shows the more positive side of holodeck use, how it can help folks with an addiction rather than creating a new addiction (like Barclay).
 
The borg stories from TNG could have been done on Voyager with very little tweaking
Not really, if VOY had used a deus ex machina to introduce the crew to the Borg and use the same Deus ex Machina to escape (which is what Q did to the ENT-D) then there's just be complaints over how contrived the whole thing was from start to finish.

And in BOBW, the plot was stopping the Borg from conquering Earth and the Federation. In VOY there is no Federation or world to defend, and they don't have an android to hack the Collective with.

With "Descent" they lured the Borg ship to a sun and used the Sun to destroy the ship, if VOY had done that then the audience would just complain that the Sun's power shouldn't be enough to destroy the Borg ship.

What the hell? People didnt complain about Q-Who or Descent because they were well told stories! And sure, the whole Borg conquer Earth thing was a big part of the story, but the main story was about Riker, which is something that could have been replicated on VOY. As for not having an android, they could have maybe used the EMH? Or, if they had acquired her, Seven of Nine? Im not saying it could be exactly the same, but it certainly could have been similiar.

NuBSG's premise really isn't like Voyager, it just looks like it on the surface but it really isn't.

Why dont you explain how its different, instead of just saying it is?

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For starters, there really weren't any differences between the Maquis and the Fleeters to justify tensions. They should've used REAL enemies of the Federation, like the Romulans.

Again, you seem to be judging a reimagining of Voyager by the standard of the current Voyager! The Maquis should have been wanting to stay in the Delta Quadrant and make a new life there, whereas the Starfleet personnel would want to make a break for home. The Maquis could favour less 'enlightened' tactics of survival, which would constantly grate against the starfleet way. How about Tuvok stays undercover for a while, instead of instantly coming back? That could have been an interesting story for a few episodes, trying to guess who he's loyal to, setting up an interesting relationship between him and the Maquis. Or, since Voyager was a science vessel, maybe its crew would be the intellectual ones who knew how to use the ship, but the Marquis would be the ones who could fight. That would provide an interesting dynamic which is often played out in drama.

A big problem in Voyager is that the characters didnt really embody any values or functions. Janeway was just always right, she didnt have an interesting flaw like Kirk, Picard or Sisko did. Chakotay basically just agreed with her, unless te story was specifically about him disagreeing with her. Torres was totally useless, everyone else seemed to be just as good with the working of the ship as she was. Harry Kim was just the ensign. Tuvok was just this Vulcan who said 'logical' a lot. Tom was just the pilot. It never seemed like any one character was particularly necessary for ship functions, or for the dynamics of the story. Thats what was wrong with Voyager.
 
What the hell? People didnt complain about Q-Who or Descent because they were well told stories!

And I'm saying that folks would've been more inclined to see the flaws of those stories rather than the good points, if they were Voyager episodes instead of TNG episodes.

And sure, the whole Borg conquer Earth thing was a big part of the story, but the main story was about Riker, which is something that could have been replicated on VOY.

How? Riker's story there was about him stepping up and proving himself in a major situation but it was just one subplot in an episode full of subplots for various characters. What would the VOY equivalent be, Chakotay wondering if he had a future on the ship? If he wanted he could just leave and be done with it.

And yes, without the greater storyline of the Borg wanting to conquer Earth it just falls apart. If it was about the Borg wanting to conquer some random planet VOY was nearby, the audience wouldn't care about the fate of those people and they'd think it was a waste of time for VOY to bother wanting to protect them.

Why dont you explain how its different, instead of just saying it is?

In NuBSG, they don't have replicators and they've never done deep space exploration before and the Galactica (plus all the other vessels) were all older clunkier things. Thus they have more reasons for needing resupplies and all that.

They also have a "magic" teleport engine that cannot be tracked, meaning whenever they use it the enemy can't just tell where they've gone and keep following them. They have a better escape method than VOY did for travel and running from enemies.

They also have a huge number of unarmed civilians to protect, which means they also have tons of cannon fodder to sacrifice to their enemy if the situation calls for it while again VOY has nothing to sacrifice or build up an enemy with.

Also, the Fleet is all that's left of their civilization meaning if they die then that's it. VOY is just one insignificant ship with an insignificant crew whom no one would care about or miss if they died, with no greater importance to anything or anybody.

Again, you seem to be judging a reimagining of Voyager by the standard of the current Voyager!

TNG did a good job of setting things up for DS9 with the Cardassians and Bajorans and showing their history and how they'd have differences with the Feds. DS9 in turn did NOT do a good job setting up the Maquis as a faction opposed to the Feds. There were no real differences between them, they weren't true enemies (the Cardassians were their foes, not the Feds) and the sole reason for conflict (The DMZ) was now too far away to continue fighting about.

They should have used the Romulans instead, they're the oldest enemy of the Federation and have well-established views/cultural differences/politics opposed to the Federation that would fuel lots of good stories. Plus, they'd add to things with their more militant attitudes and disciplines and better ability at spying and manipulations.

A big problem in Voyager is that the characters didnt really embody any values or functions. Janeway was just always right, she didnt have an interesting flaw like Kirk, Picard or Sisko did. Chakotay basically just agreed with her, unless te story was specifically about him disagreeing with her. Torres was totally useless, everyone else seemed to be just as good with the working of the ship as she was. Harry Kim was just the ensign. Tuvok was just this Vulcan who said 'logical' a lot. Tom was just the pilot. It never seemed like any one character was particularly necessary for ship functions, or for the dynamics of the story. Thats what was wrong with Voyager.

One flaw was having the cast be too large, the central characters should've been Janeway/Chakotay/Paris/Tuvok/The Doctor, with Kim/Kes/Neelix/Torres as Secondary recurring characters.

At least with shows like Farscape, the ship was automated and didn't need a crew. Thus the characters didn't need to work together and were allowed to have traits for better conflict and group dynamics.
 
The Hirogen, Q, the Vadwaar, the Caretakers, the Borg...I think they had opportunity to create larger arcs but generally shied away from them.

The Vadwaar were a great concept -- their method of travel almost guarantees that they'd be a constant thorn on Voyager's side as recurring villains. And watching Voyager fend off itty bitty fighters was something new for Trek.

Of course, having their enemies be a few thousand years more advanced because of hibernation was... iffy.
 
If they had ditched the "Voyager won't have any support" part of the premise, they could've cured the Vidiians and begun forming alliances starting with them against the villains of the series like the Kazon and Vadwaar.
 
What if Voyager would had been chased?

I dont know by what, just something sinister?

That could had added extra tension.

There could had been conflict alright between the Maquis and Starfleet.

They could had been terrorists, anarchists, privateers so on...

All sorts people participate in rebellions.
 
They WERE chased, by the Kazon and the Borg. The reaction was negative in both cases.

As for internal tension, they needed some people who really WERE opposed to the Feds and how they did things for that to work. DS9 didn't do a good enough job setting up the Maquis to be this group.
 
And when they did, the chase aspects were fun and exciting. I still remember the Viddians grappling onto Voyager and being fearful they'd get their organs harvested.

The Maquis were never given a chance. There were a dozen episodes there - pft, nadda. They were flavorless grumps for the most part.

DS9 had nothing to do with it. The Ferengi were mostly crap on TNG, but DS9 revived them just fine. That is, till they encrapulated them again.
 
TNG created the Cardassians and Bajorans, and did a good job explaining their history and setting up the initial conflicts of DS9.

DS9 didn't do a good job creating the Maquis. They weren't the anti-Federation group they were intended to be, they were too poorly defined (were they Fed citizens or not? Did they consider the Feds their enemies or the Cardassians?).

They should've either set the Maquis up better as foils to the Feds with properly defined differences in politics, actions and ideology.

Either that, or use one of the other antagonist species in Trek like the Romulans or Cardassians.

Or, have there be only 2-4 characters be Federation Officers and the rest of the crew of VOY are all random Delta Quadrant aliens they rescued from the Caretaker/Kazon.

DS9 also had a lot to do with it: DS9 changed the rules by having there be big fleet battles, meaning VOY couldn't hope to ever compete with their one-on-one style of starship battling (because that's what would believably happen with a premise like VOY's since they were meant to be utterly alone with no allies ever), so they had to have lots of battles with multiple vessels but VOY could never assemble an armada of its own because that would violate the premise. So they had to de-power their enemies to have VOY survive combat with entire fleets.
 
They WERE chased, by the Kazon and the Borg. The reaction was negative in both cases.

As for internal tension, they needed some people who really WERE opposed to the Feds and how they did things for that to work. DS9 didn't do a good enough job setting up the Maquis to be this group.


They werent chased on a permanent basis.

Like i said there could be many types of Maquis.
 
Well, VOY's premise meant that they'd always be on the move and leaving everything behind them every episode. For them to be chased by the same people for 7 years with that sort of premise would mean these guys would have to be willing to leave behind everything they had just to get this one group of faraway explorers.

Now, if the premise was different and they were flying around in circles for 7 years in the same area of space then having the same people chase them for 7 years makes more sense.

I agree with you on the different Maquis thing, but that's DS9's fault for defining them so poorly.
 
Which reminds me of my initial comment that I don't think the problem was the premise but the execution. I don't think anything's undoable. It's a matter of craftsmanship and ingenuity - and having the freedom to be so. VOY did many things well but those it did poorly did not have to be. Fans were, rightly, complaining about them as the show aired.
 
I DO think that it was the premise, and that no matter how good the execution was it just couldn't fix the inherent problems of the premise and how much it limited the show and what it could do.

For example, if they had no idea how to get back to the Alpha Quadrant it would have been excuse enough to fly around in circles for 1-2 seasons without anyone in the audience or the crew to complain they weren't doing enough to get home since that just wasn't an option.
 
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For example, if they had no idea how to get back to the Alpha Quadrant it would have been excuse enough to fly around in circles for 1-2 seasons without anyone in the audience or the crew to complain they weren't doing enough to get home since that just wasn't an option.

I agree.

The first 2 season could had been more Farscape-like.
 
Hirogen/Jem Hadar
Kazon/Klingon
Coffee. Black/ Tea. Earl Grey. Hot

Voyager stole the hell out of everything.

You make it seem like DS9 was original with the Jem'Hadar.

Anyways, the Hirogen had armor strong enough to let them walk on Suns. I think they take the Jem'Hadar.

And given how constrained the show's premise was, there wasn't anything they could do with their enemies that WOULDN'T make them monsters of the week or add to the show in a meaningful way. So there's no point in complaining over that. It's pretty much impossible to tell an epic story with a plot like Voyager.

when do they say they can walk on suns?
 
Yeah, but Jem'Hadars are genetically engineered, so naturally they could beat anyone because that's what the Founders created them for. These things don't even need recreation; the only thing that makes them happy is work and fighting! Hell, they don't even need to eat! [laugh] :techman::lol:
 
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