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Hey there continuity freaks. Does history interest you?

I like history quite a lot, and I rather like world-building that looks into the history of things.

I do tend to be bothered a lot by the fact that Scifi is soooo eurocentric in how it borrows from history as a whole.
 
Some years ago, I worked with a guy who often referred to any multiple grouping of Mideastern-looking folk as a "Taliban meeting". After hearing this for the 20th time, I calmly noted to him that while Europe was busy destroying itself with plague, heresies, & heavy ugly architecture the Islamic world was the height & bastion of art, science, medicine, literature, & the like. Hurt his brain tothink that.
 
With all due my respect they did the same dumb medieval things the euros did. But nice of you for standing up.
 
Some years ago, I worked with a guy who often referred to any multiple grouping of Mideastern-looking folk as a "Taliban meeting". After hearing this for the 20th time, I calmly noted to him that while Europe was busy destroying itself with plague, heresies, & heavy ugly architecture the Islamic world was the height & bastion of art, science, medicine, literature, & the like. Hurt his brain tothink that.

With all due my respect they did the same dumb medieval things the euros did. But nice of you for standing up.

Unfortunately, there are several historiographic biases and false ideas in these statements. The idea of a western decline originates in 14th century Italian historiography (especially Petrarch) and set itself further and further due to especially Tuscan Italian and later wider European Reformation and Counter-Reformation history and cultural production. Foremost, the issue is that 'the same dumb medieval things' and 'plague, heresies, & heavy ugly architecture' both reflect a historiographic tradition about the ascent of Early Modern Europe which no longer reflect or relate to the practice of European or Eurasian late antique, medieval and early modern history as it is discussed and researched in academia today.

The cliches of religion, education, literacy, relationship to classical culture, art, architecture, self-awareness, politics, social structure and gender roles over what are effectively eleven centuries of history are far more complex, interesting and important that either of these statements suggest. More so early modern developments began in the medieval period, and you would not find a historian today who persisted in the idea of overwhelming and total medieval western decline as perpeptuated in history-writing until the mid-twentieth century about the Renaissance (itself a challenged historical concept) and Early Modernity.

And the relationship between West and East (with East itself being poorly defined - is it the Eastern Roman Empire, the Middle East, the Caliphates, the Sultanates, central Asia, China, etc?) is very very complex - not the simple narratives of paralleled and anachronistically enframed 'eastern' ascent and 'western' decline. 'DDD...D Unit' might be right about some of the 'same' things (but again over what are effectively 11(!) centuries, and highly contingent upon trade and cultural links), but it is historically illiterate and flawed to say the 'same dumb things'. I'm sure several of the things he meant occurred in the centuries following, and some - or many - still do, don't they? And they occured before the middle ages too.
 
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To further my last post, you might all be interested in contemporary study of the Global Middle Ages. Projects of importance occur at Texas, Oxford, Edinburgh and other institutions. For an introduction, read Dr. Geraldine Heng's article on academia.edu, 'The Global Middle Ages:An Experiment in Collaborative Humanities,or Imagining the World,500–1500 C.E' and an older introduction in 1995 by Wolf Schäfer, 'The Global Ages'.

For a portal to GMA at Texas, see here.

- Gmap - the Global Middle Ages project
- Oxford
- Texas Mappa Mundi
- Edinburgh

Finally, look at this video, 'Decentering history: local stories and cultural crossings in a global world' by Professor Natalie Zemon Davis

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgacRhulA2E[/yt]

And then a discussion by Natalie Zemon Davis, Bonnie Smith, David Abulafia and Joan Scott:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOjG98KNouE[/yt]

Finally, an excellent interview with Professor Davis, on a different book and topic, her book, Trickster Travels: A Sixteenth-Century Muslim Between Worlds, which tells the story of al-Hasan al-Wazzan, a diplomat for the Sultan of Fez who was captured by pirates in 1518, and imprisoned by Pope Leo X. When he converted to Christianity, al-Hasan was released and given a new name: Leo Africanus. For the next decade Leo lived in Italy and worked with Christian scholars. It was during this time that he wrote his Description of Africa, a famous text that would be reprinted throughout Europe.
 
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Some years ago, I worked with a guy who often referred to any multiple grouping of Mideastern-looking folk as a "Taliban meeting". After hearing this for the 20th time, I calmly noted to him that while Europe was busy destroying itself with plague, heresies, & heavy ugly architecture the Islamic world was the height & bastion of art, science, medicine, literature, & the like. Hurt his brain tothink that.

Another thing racists like that don't understand is that the main enemies of groups like the Taliban or al-Qaeda are not Westerners, but fellow Mideasterners, fellow Muslims who disagree with their radical fundamentalism. The real conflict isn't Muslims vs. Christians or Mideast vs. America; the core of the conflict is between reactionary and progressive forces within Islam itself, vying to define the direction of their civilization. We just got dragged into it because we took sides.

The real irony is that the same kind of internal conflict between tolerant progressives and intolerant fundamentalists is going on right now in America, as seen in the rise of the Tea Party and the renewed "culture war" over things like gay rights and women's issues. Our country is deeply divided ideologically, and yet many of us assume that the Mideast is completely united behind extremist fringe groups. There's a real blind spot there.

To get things back on topic, this is why studying world history is valuable -- it reveals that the same patterns recur everywhere, and that the way things are today is not the way they've always been or always will be. A civilization that's a unified, progressive world power in one era can be in decline and torn by internal strife in another, and vice-versa. And no single culture has progressed very far without drawing on the wisdom of other cultures.
 
Some years ago, I worked with a guy who often referred to any multiple grouping of Mideastern-looking folk as a "Taliban meeting". After hearing this for the 20th time, I calmly noted to him that while Europe was busy destroying itself with plague, heresies, & heavy ugly architecture the Islamic world was the height & bastion of art, science, medicine, literature, & the like. Hurt his brain tothink that.

With all due my respect they did the same dumb medieval things the euros did. But nice of you for standing up.

Unfortunately, there are several historiographic biases and false ideas in these statements. The idea of a western decline originates in 14th century Italian historiography (especially Petrarch) and set itself further and further due to especially Tuscan Italian and later wider European Reformation and Counter-Reformation history and cultural production. Foremost, the issue is that 'the same dumb medieval things' and 'plague, heresies, & heavy ugly architecture' both reflect a historiographic tradition about the ascent of Early Modern Europe which no longer reflect or relate to the practice of European or Eurasian late antique, medieval and early modern history as it is discussed and researched in academia today.

The cliches of religion, education, literacy, relationship to classical culture, art, architecture, self-awareness, politics, social structure and gender roles over what are effectively eleven centuries of history are far more complex, interesting and important that either of these statements suggest. More so early modern developments began in the medieval period, and you would not find a historian today who persisted in the idea of overwhelming and total medieval western decline as perpeptuated in history-writing until the mid-twentieth century about the Renaissance (itself a challenged historical concept) and Early Modernity.

And the relationship between West and East (with East itself being poorly defined - is it the Eastern Roman Empire, the Middle East, the Caliphates, the Sultanates, central Asia, China, etc?) is very very complex - not the simple narratives of paralleled and anachronistically enframed 'eastern' ascent and 'western' decline. 'DDD...D Unit' might be right about some of the 'same' things (but again over what are effectively 11(!) centuries, and highly contingent upon trade and cultural links), but it is historically illiterate and flawed to say the 'same dumb things'. I'm sure several of the things he meant occurred in the centuries following, and some - or many - still do, don't they? And they occured before the middle ages too.

I maintain the right to belive that the people in the midle ages all over the world were lunatics compared to mo most modern human beings. They burned witches and soldiers raping women after taking city was viewed as natural.
 
Some years ago, I worked with a guy who often referred to any multiple grouping of Mideastern-looking folk as a "Taliban meeting". After hearing this for the 20th time, I calmly noted to him that while Europe was busy destroying itself with plague, heresies, & heavy ugly architecture the Islamic world was the height & bastion of art, science, medicine, literature, & the like. Hurt his brain tothink that.

With all due my respect they did the same dumb medieval things the euros did. But nice of you for standing up.

Unfortunately, there are several historiographic biases and false ideas in these statements. The idea of a western decline originates in 14th century Italian historiography (especially Petrarch) and set itself further and further due to especially Tuscan Italian and later wider European Reformation and Counter-Reformation history and cultural production. Foremost, the issue is that 'the same dumb medieval things' and 'plague, heresies, & heavy ugly architecture' both reflect a historiographic tradition about the ascent of Early Modern Europe which no longer reflect or relate to the practice of European or Eurasian late antique, medieval and early modern history as it is discussed and researched in academia today.

The cliches of religion, education, literacy, relationship to classical culture, art, architecture, self-awareness, politics, social structure and gender roles over what are effectively eleven centuries of history are far more complex, interesting and important that either of these statements suggest. More so early modern developments began in the medieval period, and you would not find a historian today who persisted in the idea of overwhelming and total medieval western decline as perpeptuated in history-writing until the mid-twentieth century about the Renaissance (itself a challenged historical concept) and Early Modernity.

And the relationship between West and East (with East itself being poorly defined - is it the Eastern Roman Empire, the Middle East, the Caliphates, the Sultanates, central Asia, China, etc?) is very very complex - not the simple narratives of paralleled and anachronistically enframed 'eastern' ascent and 'western' decline. 'DDD...D Unit' might be right about some of the 'same' things (but again over what are effectively 11(!) centuries, and highly contingent upon trade and cultural links), but it is historically illiterate and flawed to say the 'same dumb things'. I'm sure several of the things he meant occurred in the centuries following, and some - or many - still do, don't they? And they occured before the middle ages too.

Yeah, I'd like to hear you explain that to somebody who thought Marx was a third baseman for the '76 Cubs.
 
Some years ago, I worked with a guy who often referred to any multiple grouping of Mideastern-looking folk as a "Taliban meeting". After hearing this for the 20th time, I calmly noted to him that while Europe was busy destroying itself with plague, heresies, & heavy ugly architecture the Islamic world was the height & bastion of art, science, medicine, literature, & the like. Hurt his brain tothink that.

With all due my respect they did the same dumb medieval things the euros did. But nice of you for standing up.

Unfortunately, there are several historiographic biases and false ideas in these statements. The idea of a western decline originates in 14th century Italian historiography (especially Petrarch) and set itself further and further due to especially Tuscan Italian and later wider European Reformation and Counter-Reformation history and cultural production. Foremost, the issue is that 'the same dumb medieval things' and 'plague, heresies, & heavy ugly architecture' both reflect a historiographic tradition about the ascent of Early Modern Europe which no longer reflect or relate to the practice of European or Eurasian late antique, medieval and early modern history as it is discussed and researched in academia today.

The cliches of religion, education, literacy, relationship to classical culture, art, architecture, self-awareness, politics, social structure and gender roles over what are effectively eleven centuries of history are far more complex, interesting and important that either of these statements suggest. More so early modern developments began in the medieval period, and you would not find a historian today who persisted in the idea of overwhelming and total medieval western decline as perpeptuated in history-writing until the mid-twentieth century about the Renaissance (itself a challenged historical concept) and Early Modernity.

And the relationship between West and East (with East itself being poorly defined - is it the Eastern Roman Empire, the Middle East, the Caliphates, the Sultanates, central Asia, China, etc?) is very very complex - not the simple narratives of paralleled and anachronistically enframed 'eastern' ascent and 'western' decline. 'DDD...D Unit' might be right about some of the 'same' things (but again over what are effectively 11(!) centuries, and highly contingent upon trade and cultural links), but it is historically illiterate and flawed to say the 'same dumb things'. I'm sure several of the things he meant occurred in the centuries following, and some - or many - still do, don't they? And they occured before the middle ages too.

Yeah, I'd like to hear you explain that to somebody who thought Marx was a third baseman for the '76 Cubs.

Ahaha, I wish I knew baseball to get the reference ;)

I thought you might enjoy this blog run by my friends (mostly medievalist phds who variously look at Middle Eastern or Latin European topics in the Middle Ages), it's called 'Beyond Borders' and is a really good forum!
 
Some years ago, I worked with a guy who often referred to any multiple grouping of Mideastern-looking folk as a "Taliban meeting". After hearing this for the 20th time, I calmly noted to him that while Europe was busy destroying itself with plague, heresies, & heavy ugly architecture the Islamic world was the height & bastion of art, science, medicine, literature, & the like. Hurt his brain tothink that.

With all due my respect they did the same dumb medieval things the euros did. But nice of you for standing up.

Unfortunately, there are several historiographic biases and false ideas in these statements. The idea of a western decline originates in 14th century Italian historiography (especially Petrarch) and set itself further and further due to especially Tuscan Italian and later wider European Reformation and Counter-Reformation history and cultural production. Foremost, the issue is that 'the same dumb medieval things' and 'plague, heresies, & heavy ugly architecture' both reflect a historiographic tradition about the ascent of Early Modern Europe which no longer reflect or relate to the practice of European or Eurasian late antique, medieval and early modern history as it is discussed and researched in academia today.

The cliches of religion, education, literacy, relationship to classical culture, art, architecture, self-awareness, politics, social structure and gender roles over what are effectively eleven centuries of history are far more complex, interesting and important that either of these statements suggest. More so early modern developments began in the medieval period, and you would not find a historian today who persisted in the idea of overwhelming and total medieval western decline as perpeptuated in history-writing until the mid-twentieth century about the Renaissance (itself a challenged historical concept) and Early Modernity.

And the relationship between West and East (with East itself being poorly defined - is it the Eastern Roman Empire, the Middle East, the Caliphates, the Sultanates, central Asia, China, etc?) is very very complex - not the simple narratives of paralleled and anachronistically enframed 'eastern' ascent and 'western' decline. 'DDD...D Unit' might be right about some of the 'same' things (but again over what are effectively 11(!) centuries, and highly contingent upon trade and cultural links), but it is historically illiterate and flawed to say the 'same dumb things'. I'm sure several of the things he meant occurred in the centuries following, and some - or many - still do, don't they? And they occured before the middle ages too.

I maintain the right to belive that the people in the midle ages all over the world were lunatics compared to mo most modern human beings. They burned witches and soldiers raping women after taking city was viewed as natural.

I'd rather you chased after the historical truth quoted in your signature. Maintaining a belief rather than investigating the complexity of evidence is not chasing the truth! :D

As if an ill-defined 'they' is 'the people', that is, the entirety of people between two continents! I do think your historical view is shaped by popular culture and the kind of mythic meta-narratives of the period it perpeptuates. It is the same unthinking, unexploratory use of 'medieval' as in 'genre' - pejorative and formed by a lack of study or experience. :(

Anyway, on rape check out Sexual Violence and Rape in the Middle Ages. A Critical Discourse in Premodern German and European Literature (2011).
 
Yeah, I'd like to hear you explain that to somebody who thought Marx was a third baseman for the '76 Cubs.

I thought everyone knew that Karl Marx was the one who got replaced by Zeppo when they went from vaudeville to movies. ;)
 
Just a few personal thoughts relevant to that which we're discussing:

Part of the problem, I believe, is that those who are seeking to overcome perceived biases or limitations in their societal worldview are often - indeed, I'd go as far as to claim usually - guilty of the same blindness themselves. The very fact that societies and cultures are so fragmented and diverse means that people who view themselves as "progressive" are instead (I'd claim) often just reinforcing the assumptions, biases and attitudes inherent in their own long-established subculture or ideology, constructing the idea of an entrenched norm that they perceive themselves as challenging or subverting - or at the very least perceiving where others don't. And often their perspective makes use of the same underlying ingredients anyway, and from a third or fourth viewpoint, or from a genuine outsider's perspective, looks simply like a new wrinkle on a old fabric, a new approach to an old line of reasoning.

There's a strong desire in many people to challenge and change, which can often be very positive, as most Star Trek fans would surely appreciate (the need for self-reflection and growth) - so long as true self-reflection is really what's occurring, and it's not just a case of constructing an ideological package (or having it constructed for you), aligning it against another ideological camp, real or imagined, and then pushing for yours against theirs. The group dynamics of naturally tribalistic people no doubt comes into play, here - it seems there has to be an enemy that one is arrayed against, someone "less moral" to prove yourself against. Cooperation and relational aggression are intimately entwined in most people, and politics and struggle seem difficult for most to avoid. Two powerful instinctive urges - for conformity (membership and immersion in the group), and for individual status within that structure. The tribe and the self.

I've maintained that the vast majority of people are conservative by nature; the ones who label themselves such are simply the honest ones (there are exceptions, naturally). Academia is full of people who like to perceive themselves as provocatively challenging established thought structures and discourses when in fact they are the established discourse (or one of them, more to the point), and the image they present of a society rooted in certain assumptions is more often as much a construct of their own ideological biases, the perceived truth their affiliations and teachers demanded they observe, mixed with some genuine observations on other sub-groups and ideological positions, which may in fact be less powerful and influential than their own. They also dislike it when someone else turns around and views them with the same distaste or judgemental moral commentary that they apply to others.

Understanding is a three-edged sword, but all too often people think that the sharper edge is whichever one they're embracing. They don't understand that other people might look on them as backward, or foolish, and lacking in self-awareness, just as they perceive whichever group they're opposing. Often people fight against the perceived or projected idea of what other people think rather than what they do. And the greatest enemy is never the outsider, it's the neighbour who isn't in your ideological camp. The tribe that is really two tribes, in direct competition because they're occupying the same niche.

And of course, other people will look upon my perspective here and see it as strange or even hypocritical; after all, at least a few readers would observe in my own perspectives and behaviours the exact things I'm criticizing here. Such is always the way. "Chaos cannot be mastered". :)
 
If someone ever disliked history growing up, I'd like to take a moment to recommend James Loewen's excellent book Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong.

I'd like to second this recommendation & also recommend his book Lies Across America: What Our Historic Markers and Monuments Get Wrong, which focuses on historically inaccurate markers/monuments and the agenda of those who built them.
 
I am just curious about people who like it when Trek novels build on each other, reference each other and retcon stuff that does not make sense in the movies/tv series.
Do you guys care about IRL history? Is there one of you who was never into history?

I love history, have as far back (in history :guffaw:) as I can remember. Started with my interest in dinosaurs & prehistoric life as a child, my father had interest in the past American empires of the Maya, Aztec & Incas, which I also like. That fed into my interest in all history (was great getting dates in high school) from continent arrangements to ancient empires to the old west. Wish I'd used my interest to make a career out of it but still read & watch things history related. Eventually I hope humanity will learn from its past but that's something different.

I do like it when TrekLit references the past & builds on past novels & events.
 
Love history, but couldn't figure out how to many any money doing it, so became an engineer instead :lol:

Mixed sentiments on this one in the books. Perfectly fine with stories building off each other, although at times it can be a little limiting, and slows down how often you get new stories. For example, the new VOY books are fantastic, but having a single writer, and having the stories all flow together, means you only get one, maybe two a year. While I like the overall narratives, I'm also perfectly happy with the one-off 'bottle' stories as well, perhaps as a result of doing mostly the old numbered TOS books when I started reading in the 80s. A nice stand alone book can be more satisfying at times than a 12-book series that slows down the payoff.

Filling in 'missing' history from the series also totally depends. Lost Era is fun, things like the Khan "To Reign in Hell" book are amazing, etc. Plenty of areas to explore there. The retcon idea i don't care for as much. I didn't need a convoluted excuse for why Klingons look different in TNG, perfectly happy knowing they had better makeup and budgets. Same for trying to shoehorn in why ENT looks more advanced than TOS, thought that particular excuse was stupid. Even if you wanted to 'battle harden' the tech, it's more a networking thing than a touchscreen thing. Moving from screens to buttons and switches is just dumb. And were they so worried about Romulans that they changed over their PADDs too? Come on. that kind of stuff is more annoying to me than helpful, and I'm perfectly ok with handwaving the visual stuff away. Unless there were intentional changes, don't need to explain. SFX and makeup just got better in the last 50 years, it's ok.
 
I am a HUGE history Geek. I love Zinn, and for really well written non fiction that reads like a novel you cannot beat Erik Larson (Devil In The White City being one of his best). The thing I love the most about history is that if you keep digging you learn that nothing happens without a reason of one kind or another. Take for example the bombing of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese. Big fucking surprise? Not really if you merely do a little reading about Gunboat Diplomacy and the way Japan was forced to trade with the US. Suddenly a confrontation becames all but inevitable.

One of the things in Trek that made my inner History Geek smile was when they referred to what we call the Old West as the Ancient West. Such a small thing but it made perfect sense.
 
Take for example the bombing of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese. Big fucking surprise? Not really if you merely do a little reading about Gunboat Diplomacy and the way Japan was forced to trade with the US. Suddenly a confrontation becames all but inevitable.

Well, except Pearl Harbor wasn't about attacking the US per se. It was about getting the US out of the way so Japan could freely invade Southeast Asia. We weren't the target, just an obstacle.


One of the things in Trek that made my inner History Geek smile was when they referred to what we call the Old West as the Ancient West. Such a small thing but it made perfect sense.

Not to me. The frontier era of the American West would've been only 500 or so years in their past. That would be like us referring to the early Renaissance era as "ancient," and I've never heard anyone do that. Generally we don't use "ancient" to refer to anything less than 1500 years in the past -- the main exception being pre-Columbian Mesoamerican and South American history, since you do come across references to the "Ancient Incas" and such even though their peak wasn't all that long ago. But in that case, the historical "distance" is effectively greater since so few records were preserved. The Trek characters seem to retain a pretty detailed knowledge of history between the American West and their own era, so it doesn't really make sense for them to refer to it as "ancient."
 
I like Chris, Paris, and Sinclair have a degree in history and have loved studying about the past since I was a kid. As a result I greatly enjoy when trek authors, TV shows, and movies address continuity topics/issues. When Trek novels, etc... build on each others work it adds to my overall enjoyment of the series.
 
Take for example the bombing of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese. Big fucking surprise? Not really if you merely do a little reading about Gunboat Diplomacy and the way Japan was forced to trade with the US. Suddenly a confrontation becames all but inevitable.

Well, except Pearl Harbor wasn't about attacking the US per se. It was about getting the US out of the way so Japan could freely invade Southeast Asia. We weren't the target, just an obstacle.


One of the things in Trek that made my inner History Geek smile was when they referred to what we call the Old West as the Ancient West. Such a small thing but it made perfect sense.
Not to me. The frontier era of the American West would've been only 500 or so years in their past. That would be like us referring to the early Renaissance era as "ancient," and I've never heard anyone do that. Generally we don't use "ancient" to refer to anything less than 1500 years in the past -- the main exception being pre-Columbian Mesoamerican and South American history, since you do come across references to the "Ancient Incas" and such even though their peak wasn't all that long ago. But in that case, the historical "distance" is effectively greater since so few records were preserved. The Trek characters seem to retain a pretty detailed knowledge of history between the American West and their own era, so it doesn't really make sense for them to refer to it as "ancient."

I don't agree with you in either case.

As regards Pearl Harbor, while certainly the stated purpose was a pre-emptive strike to "get America out of the way", to me with further investigation it makes precious little sense. America was going through one of our periodic isolationist periods and there was a massive push not to involve ourselves in what was seen as the problems of "other" countries. Attacking us to keep us out of the war is a bit like punching someone to try and keep a fight from starting. One could claim cultural differences at play but given the fact that one of the lead Admirals? (and forgive me but I'm quick typing this while making dinner so I'm neglecting my wiki-fu) had spent time in the US, had gone to school here for a time. Personally I think they were eager to redress the insults done them in the past and this was merely the pre-text they used.

Now as for the Ancient West. While I am a History Geek, what I am not is a professional historian. Neither are any of the characters in the episode in which the term appears. To me reading about things that took place during the so called Old West period, I am often astonished when I am reminded both of how short the period really was, and of how recent it was. Plus given how destabilizing the post atomic horror period was, and how much knowledge was lost, I don't find it the least bit implausible that the "old" West would become the "Ancient" West ahead of schedule, especially in the minds of lay people.
 
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