Heroes Reborn - Season 1 Discussion Thread (with Spoilers)

[The Old Mixer]

When I say original vs. altered timeline, I'm referring specifically to HRG's wild card actions. The rest was more or less predestined, or happened very similarly before and after HRG's actions. But shooting Erica was a clear alteration that hadn't already happened before HRG went back, and that led directly to Quentin's opportunity to get on the inside with Erica.

And again, we're dealing with multiple layers of time travel. Hiro and HRG went back from 2015 to 2014, and then the same Hiro took Angela and the kids back to 1999. He took them back to 1999 before HRG stepped on Erica's butterfly, so their roles from 1999 to 2014 proceeded as they always had / were predestined to. But HRG's actions in 2014 after they were gone potentially changed things between June 13, 2014, and the present.

 

[Gryffindorian]

To entertain your theory, did Quentin even have an opportunity to get to Erica and become a mole in the original timeline? In the altered version, he saves her life and confronts her in her hospital room.

But the whole point is that there is no "original/altered" divide -- that it's a time loop instead. We saw repeatedly that the intervention of Noah and Hiro in the past led directly to the situations we've seen throughout the series. Tommy and Malina would not be teenagers today if Noah had not convinced Hiro to take him back to June 13, 2014. The Hiro of that timestream had just been trapped in Otomo's game. If there had been an "original" timeline unaffected by the actions of 2015 Noah and Hiro, then Tommy/Nathan and Malina would only be a year old now and would probaby be in Erica's custody, or dead.

So the time travel did not change the key events of the series, it caused them in the first place. It's not Marty McFly, it's Kyle Reese. A causal loop. The "original" version of June 13 is the one where Noah and Hiro came back from 2015. It has to be.

If it was a temporal loop, then the present would've remained exactly as it should have. Erica wouldn't have suffered any injury. Quentin would be dead. You stated that it couldn't be done both ways. if all the episodes we've seen were predestined to happen - and they did - then why is the present different from the last time Noah left?

But it doesn't make sense to say, on the one hand, that Noah's time travel to the past was part of those events all along, and on the other hand, that his time travel changed those events. Those are contradictory assumptions. It's narratively and logically cheating to try to have it both ways in the same event.

.

 

[Christopher]

And again, we're dealing with multiple layers of time travel. Hiro and HRG went back from 2015 to 2014, and then the same Hiro took Angela and the kids back to 1999. He took them back to 1999 before HRG stepped on Erica's butterfly, so their roles from 1999 to 2014 proceeded as they always had / were predestined to. But HRG's actions in 2014 after they were gone potentially changed things between June 13, 2014, and the present.

If that is what the writers intended, I still say it's sloppy writing. If the time-travelling Noah and Hiro were part of the "original" sequence of events, then why would Noah and Hiro time travelling change that sequence of events? That's a self-contradictory premise. In order for a "change" to occur, there would have to be yet another time traveller who wasn't part of the original time loop, someone to introduce a new variable.

 

[Morpheus 02]

And again, we're dealing with multiple layers of time travel. Hiro and HRG went back from 2015 to 2014, and then the same Hiro took Angela and the kids back to 1999. He took them back to 1999 before HRG stepped on Erica's butterfly, so their roles from 1999 to 2014 proceeded as they always had / were predestined to. But HRG's actions in 2014 after they were gone potentially changed things between June 13, 2014, and the present.

If that is what the writers intended, I still say it's sloppy writing. If the time-travelling Noah and Hiro were part of the "original" sequence of events, then why would Noah and Hiro time travelling change that sequence of events? That's a self-contradictory premise. In order for a "change" to occur, there would have to be yet another time traveller who wasn't part of the original time loop, someone to introduce a new variable.

I think we'll have to see how it all plays out. It's part of a 13 episode arc, so might not be done with this time loop yet. SInce Nathan apparently also has time traveling abilities, he may be able to restore things (if needed).

I' still liking the series...so much has happened, I'm still a little confused as to what had changed, what stayed the same and what should and shouldn't make sense

 

[DWF]

And again, we're dealing with multiple layers of time travel. Hiro and HRG went back from 2015 to 2014, and then the same Hiro took Angela and the kids back to 1999. He took them back to 1999 before HRG stepped on Erica's butterfly, so their roles from 1999 to 2014 proceeded as they always had / were predestined to. But HRG's actions in 2014 after they were gone potentially changed things between June 13, 2014, and the present.

If that is what the writers intended, I still say it's sloppy writing. If the time-travelling Noah and Hiro were part of the "original" sequence of events, then why would Noah and Hiro time travelling change that sequence of events? That's a self-contradictory premise. In order for a "change" to occur, there would have to be yet another time traveller who wasn't part of the original time loop, someone to introduce a new variable.

Of the original timeline we know only that Hiro and 2014 Noah was in the room where Claire's body was kept. There's no hint of the 2015 Noah going to the past. We also have no idea what Hiro was doing in the hospital or how he got out of the game in the original timeline.

 

[kitik]

I think we'll have to see how it all plays out. It's part of a 13 episode arc, so might not be done with this time loop yet. SInce Nathan apparently also has time traveling abilities, he may be able to restore things (if needed).

So you're saying there's a chance that in the final episode Nathan will travel back in time to save Hiro right before the Harris's kill him. Might as well go for the gold and pick up Claire's body while he's back there, and bring it forward to the present and see if Malina can bring her back to life like she did with those apparently dead butterflies.

 

[Morpheus 02]

I think we'll have to see how it all plays out. It's part of a 13 episode arc, so might not be done with this time loop yet. SInce Nathan apparently also has time traveling abilities, he may be able to restore things (if needed).

So you're saying there's a chance that in the final episode Nathan will travel back in time to save Hiro right before the Harris's kill him. Might as well go for the gold and pick up Claire's body while he's back there, and bring it forward to the present and see if Malina can bring her back to life like she did with those apparently dead butterflies.

Logically, you're right about Claire (unless Hiro or Nathan check all possibilities & find that is a disaster).

In Real Life/Behind the Scenes, it looks like they couldn't get Hayden to make an appearance (I assume she either costs too much and/or has serious scheduling conflicts), so Claire's unsaveable. Maybe Hayden didn't like the idea of her character dying, so she wouldn't even be a corpse for 1 hour?

 

[ZeNd]

Just finished watching the episode and I really think you guys are overthinking things on the time travel....

To me, is seems VERY OBVIOUS that we are witnessing a altered timeline. I'm not even quite convinced (writer's intent) that the different is only minor. Molly, Quentin, and the Hatian are alive in this timeframe, and I'm not even convinced that HRG meeting himself is a casual loop, meaning that this IS another difference. Hiro sending himself into the past, dying, along with the general flow of Odessa along with the shapeshifter impersonating Mohinder is the same, but there are enough differences in the timeline now that will "bufferfly" into a major difference in the present such as Quentin being a mole.

This was, overall, an EXCELLENT episode and am loving the writing. The only thing that puzzles me is Nathan never has shown any ability (or knowledge) of time travel, only teleportation. Also, why is his abilities different than Hiro? I don't recall, in the original heros, peter petrilli copied abilities exactly, right? Nathan's ability should be exactly like Hiros, but it's different.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Molly [...] and the Hatian are alive in this timeframe

Do we know that yet, or are you spoiling us?

 

[ZeNd]

Molly [...] and the Hatian are alive in this timeframe

Do we know that yet, or are you spoiling us?

No, I do not have access or know of any spoilers. I'm speculating based purely off the events of the last episode.

In both timeframes, HRG's memories were erased. From the previous episodes it seemed like penny man was NOT involved at all but instead the Hatian was involved. After this episode, it seemed the timeline changed and instead penny man is involved with the memory loss. Same result, minus the Hatian, so I'm assuming he is alive since HRG has no reason to kill him and in fact never visited that fake eye clinic (if it even exist in this timeline?).

I suspect next episode Molly and the Hatian being alive will be cleared up.

But I'm sure Hiro and Mohinder are really dead.

 

[ZeNd]

Also, I still want to add in addition to my previous post in this thread. Katana girl and her sidekick are either poor ideas or poorly executed. I'm neutral on the couple that goes after evos but I'm definitlety negative on katana girl, her sidekick, and the mexican superhero storyline.

 

[AviTrek]

Molly [...] and the Hatian are alive in this timeframe

Do we know that yet, or are you spoiling us?

No, I do not have access or know of any spoilers. I'm speculating based purely off the events of the last episode.

In both timeframes, HRG's memories were erased. From the previous episodes it seemed like penny man was NOT involved at all but instead the Hatian was involved. After this episode, it seemed the timeline changed and instead penny man is involved with the memory loss. Same result, minus the Hatian, so I'm assuming he is alive since HRG has no reason to kill him and in fact never visited that fake eye clinic (if it even exist in this timeline?).

I suspect next episode Molly and the Hatian being alive will be cleared up.

But I'm sure Hiro and Mohinder are really dead.

So why was Penny man watching/protecting Tommy in the first timeline?

 

[ZeNd]

Do we know that yet, or are you spoiling us?

No, I do not have access or know of any spoilers. I'm speculating based purely off the events of the last episode.

In both timeframes, HRG's memories were erased. From the previous episodes it seemed like penny man was NOT involved at all but instead the Hatian was involved. After this episode, it seemed the timeline changed and instead penny man is involved with the memory loss. Same result, minus the Hatian, so I'm assuming he is alive since HRG has no reason to kill him and in fact never visited that fake eye clinic (if it even exist in this timeline?).

I suspect next episode Molly and the Hatian being alive will be cleared up.

But I'm sure Hiro and Mohinder are really dead.

So why was Penny man watching/protecting Tommy in the first timeline?

Good point... was it ever explained why penny man was in Odessa in the first place, or did I miss something? Was there anyway penny man could of been involved with Nathan in the original timeline but not involved with HRG? Not sure.

Hopefully this will all clear up in the next 1-2 episodes...

 

[The Old Mixer]

There were references to Penny Man having been HRG's partner for years. Apparently both were working for Renautas.

 

[The Old Mixer]

"You're the butterfly."

So now according to the voiceover, HRG is "the most beloved hero of all." That's quite a promotion from his old voiceover description, "the face of evil."

Not clear what's up with the Haitian. Is he only alive because of the timeline change? Was he involved in HRG's memory wipe in the pre-HRG/butterfly timeline, but not this one?

That was quite a surprise with Matt, since IMDb used to have him listed for only one episode. When did he become such an asshole?

 

[DWF]

It's pretty clear that Matt's been seduced by the dark side and believes Erica's line and it would seem that eh's also got Micah somewhere. Jo's hate has now put her in the big leagues. And we got to see Nathan use Hiro's powers like Hiro used to, still sad that Hiro is gone now. And what a way to end the ep. some 7000 years in the future, but it was nice to see Miko again.

 

[sojourner]

That was quite a surprise with Matt, since IMDb used to have him listed for only one episode. When did he become such an asshole?

Seemed to be the same asshole to me.

 

[DWF]

That was quite a surprise with Matt, since IMDb used to have him listed for only one episode. When did he become such an asshole?

Seemed to be the same asshole to me.

Why? He took good care of Molly when he and Mohinder had her, he was against putting Nathan's memories into Sylar and he took out Sylar until PEter freed him. Yeah he bouthg into Erica's plan but then so did Mohinder for a while and even Hiro was a partner to Erica before she betrayed him.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Matt isn't just working with Erica...he's enjoying it.

 

[Christopher]

"You're the butterfly."

Okay, so it seems you were right, and they are going with the idea that Quentin has changed from ally to enemy. Although I still say that everything he did before is exactly what he would've done as a mole working for Erica.

And nothing else seems to be changed, except maybe Rene being alive. Erica isn't using a cane after all, although I did notice her using it in the recap clip from last week. That's an odd glitch.

And it's still a contradiction in terms to say that Noah going back in time was part of what caused the series' events and yet somehow also altered those events. But then, illogical writing is hardly unexpected for a show that once postulated that a solar eclipse can be seen everywhere on Earth at the same time.

That was quite a surprise with Matt, since IMDb used to have him listed for only one episode. When did he become such an asshole?

As I recall, he always sort of straddled the line between good and evil. His father used his own telepathy for mind control, and there was the concern raised that Matt's power might corrupt him in the same way. I guess it did.