Heroes Reborn - Season 1 Discussion Thread (with Spoilers)

[Christopher]

But it doesn't make sense to say, on the one hand, that Noah's time travel to the past was part of those events all along, and on the other hand, that his time travel changed those events. Those are contradictory assumptions. It's narratively and logically cheating to try to have it both ways in the same event.

Did we see Erica walking with a cane in the present? I didn't see that.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I thought it was clever...they avoided stepping on most of the butterflies, but managed to step on an important one that moves the plot forward in an unexpected way. And they gave us a nice twist at the end a la Heroes Season 1.

Sure, it potentially raises a headache-inducing time paradox debate about how things got that way before without that change, but there are infinite possibilities when it comes to alternate timelines.

The big unanswered question that the episode didn't address, unless I missed a bit, was how the Haitian got involved in this. He wasn't the one who took Noah's memory as previously implied. And which Noah told the Haitian to kill memory-wiped Noah if he tried to regain his memories, and when did he tell him?

Two possibilities:

1) Things played out even more differently in a previous version of the timeline, in which the Haitian had been involved, which means he might now be alive in the present.

2) That was never the Haitian, it was the apparent shape-shifter working for Erica who impersonated Mohinder. The question there is why would they try to kill Noah instead of trying to use his investigation to get more information?

Spoiler: Speculation based on casting information

Given the number of episodes that Jimmy Jean-Louis is scheduled to appear in, I think we'll be getting some answers about this one way or the other.

 

[Tom]

There is also the question of Molly. She and Noah are on good terms when Nathan goes back to the future. But, in the original timeline she is supper pissed off at Nathan and we never found out why.

 

[Christopher]

^Do you mean Noah? I think she was angry at him for trying to uncover the very secrets he'd wiped his memory to preserve.

(Which is the way it always happens in fiction -- wiping your memory to conceal a deadly secret just makes you more determined to expose the deadly secret.)

 

[Tom]

^Do you mean Noah? I think she was angry at him for trying to uncover the very secrets he'd wiped his memory to preserve.

(Which is the way it always happens in fiction -- wiping your memory to conceal a deadly secret just makes you more determined to expose the deadly secret.)

Yes Noah, my bad

 

[kitik]

I thought it was a bit conveeeeenient that Noah spilled the most important beans to Quentin the first minute after he go back.

Not quite as convenient as Quentin calling Erica immediately, while Noah was standing a few feet away, just so we could get that dramatic reveal at the end.

Did we see Erica walking with a cane in the present? I didn't see that.

check this pic

Spoiler: the final scene of the episode last night

screencap thanks to hulu

I have no idea if anything about her office is different too, but that would be a nice subtle change. But I don't have any reference to check it against. But the cane is an obvious difference. They showed her walking with it briefly when she answered the phone call too.

I thought it was clever...they avoided stepping on most of the butterflies, but managed to step on an important one that moves the plot forward in an unexpected way.

So at the end last night, we saw Harris attack Nathan/Tommy's house twice. Was he just going after Noah or Hiro, or do he and Erica know about Nathan now?

In the original timeline, they seemed to know about Malina, and in this new timeline, they obviously don't find out until "now" that Claire had twins. (And died in childbirth, very Padme-like.) So do they know about Nathan or not? And if so, does that mean Malina is now a surprise to them? Or did they totally not pick up on the fact that Tommy/Nathan was one of the chosen ones?

There are 5 episodes left, and I guess that any questions that are important enough to the story to be answered will be answered.

After last night's episode, I have a bit more confidence that we'll actually get some answers and closure at the end of this series.

 

[Gryffindorian]

But it doesn't make sense to say, on the one hand, that Noah's time travel to the past was part of those events all along, and on the other hand, that his time travel changed those events. Those are contradictory assumptions. It's narratively and logically cheating to try to have it both ways in the same event.

.

I see your point. Could Noah and Hiro have traveled back in time twice?

As we know, Noah and Hiro traveled back to 2014 with the intent of changing some things (i.e., find out what happened to Claire, possibly save her life, etc.). But he and Hiro also made an effort to preserve the original timeline (by hiding the twins from Erica and having them grow up separately). Perhaps in the original timeline, future Noah did not shoot Erica?

 

[The Old Mixer]

Now that you mention it, there are separate layers of time travel involved here. Noah only goes after Erica following Hiro, Angela, and the twins leaving for the past. So the effects that Hiro and crew had may have been a constant in any version of the affected timeline, whereas Noah's actions after they traveled were more of a variable.

 

[Mr Light]

I loved that two parter! I am mad that the original ?six? episodes were altered/erased out of continuity though. I hate it when things are permanently changed or undone like that. I really enjoyed the (unoriginal) messianic setup of the twins. But was it REALLY necessary to kill Claire AND Hiro to do it?! Yeesh. I also don't like them bringing back Parkman as a sellout bad guy.

At least we got a decent explanation for Claire's death

 

[Christopher]

I loved that two parter! I am mad that the original ?six? episodes were altered/erased out of continuity though. I hate it when things are permanently changed or undone like that.

I really don't think they were. The only clear change is Erica now needing a cane. Everything else in the past seems to have led directly into the version of the present that we've already seen -- except maybe for Quentin still being alive, but I'm convinced he was working for Erica all along, manipulating Noah to get him to investigate his missing memories and thus lead Erica to Claire's hidden offspring. Quentin's death may have been changed, or it may have been faked in the first place.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I think that he's been working for Erica all along in the current timeline, but not in the original one. A subtle twist because he could have done mostly the same things secretly working for Erica. That's the butterfly that HRG stepped on. There'd be no story point of having HRG going rogue in the past if it didn't change something less superficial than Erica walking with a cane.

(I really don't feel like I should be on a first-name basis with Erica, but nobody on the show is referring to her as "Kravid".)

 

[Christopher]

I think that he's been working for Erica all along in the current timeline, but not in the original one.

No, I've been thinking about it, and Quentin's actions throughout the series have been exactly what he'd do if he were a mole. Remember, Noah was content to stay in hiding at first. It was Quentin who tracked him down and convinced him to start looking into Renautas and his lost memories, and to find Molly Walker. He gradually earned Noah's trust and prodded him to keep digging, and that's led directly to the current situation where Erica has found what she was looking for. I can't believe that a Quentin who wasn't working for Erica would've done exactly the same things that a Quentin who was working for Erica would've done to help her find what she wanted. That would be too great a coincidence.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I think you're reading something into it that wasn't intended. I'm curious, did you watch the webisodes that set up the situation with Quentin and his sister? (I'd have to go back and rewatch myself, but IIRC, they directly contradict the idea that he was a mole in the original timeline. But I could certainly see how Quentin might seem more suspicious to somebody who hadn't watched them.)

 

[Christopher]

^If so, that's just lazy writing. Non-mole Quentin just accidentally achieves the exact same goal that mole Quentin would have wanted? What's the point of changing it at all, then?

 

[The Old Mixer]

The point is that HRG from the original timeline trusts him, and doesn't realize that he shouldn't. Hence his quick infodump as soon as he saw nuQuentin.

I think it's a clever twist. He wasn't a mole before, but could have been...and now he was all along.

ETA: Some further thought on the subject...if Erica's really smart, she'd have encouraged Quentin to pretty much do what he'd already done in the previous timeline, to the best of her ability to ascertain that. Since 2014 Erica had the opportunity to influence the actions of HRG before he went back to 2014, she had to be concerned about stepping on his butterflies. While that version of events involved her getting shot, it was a predictable situation that she could manipulate to her advantage.

 

[DWF]

This was a pretty incedible two parter, they killed off Mohinder, Hiro and Claire and explained alot of things. But as well done as the plot was, it's odd that instead of trying to stop the upcoming E.L.E. they're trying to ensure that happens. Angela is just as short sighted as Erica, but the writers let her have Nathan so that he could take Hiro's powers, instead of letting Hiro be the one ho takes Malina to the future. And really if Nathan and Malina are the ones to remake the earth they can't repopulate the planet by themselves, something Angela clearly didn't think about.

Still I do think that Molly and Miko are still alive now, which could further change the dynamic of the storyline.

 

[Christopher]

The point is that HRG from the original timeline trusts him, and doesn't realize that he shouldn't. Hence his quick infodump as soon as he saw nuQuentin.

Yes, exactly. If Quentin had been a mole all along, his entire purpose would've been to manipulate Noah into trusting him so that he would reveal the secret. Again, if Quentin hadn't pushed Noah, then Noah would never have investigated and never would've compromised Tommy and Malina's safety. He would've just kept right on working at the used car dealership. Quentin's actions before the time travel are thus directly responsible for exposing the kids to Erica, which is exactly what mole-Quentin wanted to achieve. And it's hard to believe that's a coincidence.

I'm curious, did you watch the webisodes that set up the situation with Quentin and his sister? (I'd have to go back and rewatch myself, but IIRC, they directly contradict the idea that he was a mole in the original timeline. But I could certainly see how Quentin might seem more suspicious to somebody who hadn't watched them.)

I hadn't seen them before, but I just did. The first four episodes happen before this week's episode, so they aren't relevant to the debate. And the fifth one picks up three months later. So there's no direct chronological overlap to create a contradiction. As for Quentin's actions in the last two parts, they certainly look like he's sincerely trying to find Phoebe and bring down Renautas, but that's what we would've been supposed to think even if he had been secretly a mole all along. And given the conceit that the webisodes are found footage recorded by Quentin -- to show to Hero-Truther, in the case of episode 5 -- I don't think we can rule out the possibility that the entire thing is a performance for the cameras, part of a long con on Quentin's part to manipulate Hero-Truther (Micah) into helping him track down Noah's new identity, in the same way that he then manipulated Noah into trusting him. After all, there is a three-month gap between episodes -- plenty of time for Erica to groom Quentin for his role. And why would Quentin wear his pen camera to his meeting with Hero-Truther... if he wasn't working with Renautas to expose and capture Hero-Truther?

And yes, it looked like Harris was going to shoot Quentin, but he paused to monologue first, giving an Evo time to stop him. That could've been part of maintaining Quentin's cover.

Of course, the webisodes are also consistent with your theory that he wasn't a mole to begin with. But I don't believe they rule out mine.

(Anyway, that was an incredibly self-conscious and forced use of the found-footage conceit. Found-footage is always forced, but there were just so many different times where the characters called attention to the fact that they were on camera.

(But I find it amusing that Harris's first and middle initials are "M.F.")

 

[The Old Mixer]

To entertain your theory, did Quentin even have an opportunity to get to Erica and become a mole in the original timeline? In the altered version, he saves her life and confronts her in her hospital room.

Also, I think he was genuinely killed by Phoebe, whom he was genuinely seeing for the first time since before June 13, in the original timeline. Why fake his death and then pretend it never happened? What purpose would the fake death had served if they hadn't gotten what they wanted out of Noah yet?

One possibility for the altered timeline is that maybe Phoebe isn't as far gone as she was before, since she's had some human contact with her brother.

 

[Christopher]

To entertain your theory, did Quentin even have an opportunity to get to Erica and become a mole in the original timeline? In the altered version, he saves her life and confronts her in her hospital room.

But the whole point is that there is no "original/altered" divide -- that it's a time loop instead. We saw repeatedly that the intervention of Noah and Hiro in the past led directly to the situations we've seen throughout the series. Tommy and Malina would not be teenagers today if Noah had not convinced Hiro to take him back to June 13, 2014. The Hiro of that timestream had just been trapped in Otomo's game. If there had been an "original" timeline unaffected by the actions of 2015 Noah and Hiro, then Tommy/Nathan and Malina would only be a year old now and would probaby be in Erica's custody, or dead.

So the time travel did not change the key events of the series, it caused them in the first place. It's not Marty McFly, it's Kyle Reese. A causal loop. The "original" version of June 13 is the one where Noah and Hiro came back from 2015. It has to be.

Also, I think he was genuinely killed by Phoebe, whom he was genuinely seeing for the first time since before June 13, in the original timeline. Why fake his death and then pretend it never happened? What purpose would the fake death had served if they hadn't gotten what they wanted out of Noah yet?

Because that made sure that when Noah got back and saw Quentin alive, he would be so relieved that he'd be sure to trust Quentin with the news of what he found.

 

[DWF]

Why would Erica want Claire's child in the first place? Maybe she always knew the father of the children.