Zachary Quinto would be better off if he weren't on Heroes. He's better than that.
HEROES 3x10 "The Eclipse, Part 1" Discuss and Grade
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I think they should have given the character of Sylar a break after Season 1...then his return would have meant something.
if they wanted Sy to be a good guy they should have just had him completly lose his memories. Wipe his mind & start him from scratch, have the other good guys befriend him, give him a more nurturing environment, maybe later on he's shocked to find out he was this crazed serial killer. Would have been better than- "Its not my fault Im bad, but I still want to be bad, but its the powers that make me bad, but I really want to be good, blah blah blah"...
I think he'd be good on 24. He should try that out.
Excellent! This episode is what this show should be doing every week, putting characters in scenes together and having them use dialogue to actually push their character arcs forward. And everyone doesn't need to lose their powers in order to have this type of story. They just need to stop having everyone running around like lunatics and make sure there are several scenes every episode that have some function in allowing the characters to make progerss.
The Peter & Nathan argument was the best scene, precisely highlighting the conflict between the two characters which has been utterly ignored since S1. The lack of that conflict has caused the characters to seem empty and missing some core element that makes them worth watching.
All the characters need to have core conflicts like that - both personal and interpersonal - that represent obstacles for them to overcome. Of course, Nathan and Peter are perfectly correct in their harsh assessments of each other, and those assessments tell us what their characters arcs are, why they are in this show in the first place.
All the hooplah with the eclipses and vortexes and plans for world domination are just window dressing which happen in between the important character-based scenes. Where the show goes off the rails is when the hooplah takes over. It's a lot of fun to watch the big SFX type scenes, but they should always be secondary to the point of the show.
As for Sylar, I'm starting to think he really is an empath, more than he realizes, because he seems overly influenced by whoever he happens to be in proximity of, at any given time. The scenes with him and Elle were a lot of fun, I hope they don't split them up too soon.
So at this point, I guess the stuff where Sylar lost his power but was still a psycho has been retconned into the cornfield (of the Twilight Zone variety). Fine with me, they just need to stick with this portrayal of Sylar and his power's impact on his mental health and stop contradicting themselves.
It also settles the question of whether Elle "made him go bad." If Sylar's psychosis turns on and off like a light switch with his power, Elle didn't have any say in the matter at all. At most, she could encourage him to fight the hunger or give into it, but the major influence has always been the fact that he has the power to begin with, which is something I've assumed to be the case since S1. It's the one explanation that hangs together the best considering all the evidence that has been thrown at us (though no explanation can cover the full range of contradictory material).
Lastly: is anyone ever going to tell poor Nathan that Sylar is his brother? The argument in the jungle was a great opportunity for Peter to spill the beans, because the fact that Nathan never told Peter there used to be another bother (Nathan must remember him) would be yet another accusation to toss at him. He's gonna have to find out someday!
Sylar has an unhealthy need to latch onto someone like a parasite and alter his behavior to suit what he thinks they want, which he does over and over: Elle, Chandra, Mohinder, Angela, Arthur, now back to Elle. Yeesh. But there's a certain consistency about it.
In complete contradiction to S2 (which we should all just forget about at this point), Sylar's psychosis stems from his "seeing" power, which messes up his mind something awful. Incidentally this is also a contradiction to Arthur's statement last week that Sylar kills because he is seeking power. But that just might be Arthur projecting his own motives on his son. So in theory losing his powers for good should be the only thing that will ever make him innocuous permanently. As long as he has his powers, he will continually have to fight some sort of urge, but whether that is specifically to kill or to understand how powers work, without being necessarily homocidal, is something I'm not quite clear on yet.
These are complicated people and we see one aspect of them in one scene, and then the situation changes, and we see another side. Some of the writing for Sylar has been contradictory, but some of it is an attempt to portray a character who is more complicated than most characters on TV - which, remember, are unrealistically simplistic compared with real human beings. I don't think Elle's writing has been contradictory at all, but it certainly is an attempt at complexity that is very unusual on network TV, and for the very reason that people are complaining about: it's confusing.
As for the eclipse causing powers or loss thereof, weeeelll...I guess I'll see where they're going with this notion.
And I agree with your assessment of our Mutant Bonnie & Clyde.
Sylar does bad things because the power makes him an addict. Then he feels bad about it. Then he does bad things again. Repeat indefinitely.
Aw cmon, you really think Peter will never get his powers back?!? They'll drag this unpowered stuff on for three or four more episodes and then come up with some way for the whole empath routine to return, but maybe with some kind of limiting factor to avoid the problem they were running into with him before.
The Peter & Nathan argument was the best scene, precisely highlighting the conflict between the two characters which has been utterly ignored since S1. The lack of that conflict has caused the characters to seem empty and missing some core element that makes them worth watching.
All the characters need to have core conflicts like that - both personal and interpersonal - that represent obstacles for them to overcome. Of course, Nathan and Peter are perfectly correct in their harsh assessments of each other, and those assessments tell us what their characters arcs are, why they are in this show in the first place.
All the hooplah with the eclipses and vortexes and plans for world domination are just window dressing which happen in between the important character-based scenes. Where the show goes off the rails is when the hooplah takes over. It's a lot of fun to watch the big SFX type scenes, but they should always be secondary to the point of the show.
As for Sylar, I'm starting to think he really is an empath, more than he realizes, because he seems overly influenced by whoever he happens to be in proximity of, at any given time. The scenes with him and Elle were a lot of fun, I hope they don't split them up too soon.
So at this point, I guess the stuff where Sylar lost his power but was still a psycho has been retconned into the cornfield (of the Twilight Zone variety). Fine with me, they just need to stick with this portrayal of Sylar and his power's impact on his mental health and stop contradicting themselves.
It also settles the question of whether Elle "made him go bad." If Sylar's psychosis turns on and off like a light switch with his power, Elle didn't have any say in the matter at all. At most, she could encourage him to fight the hunger or give into it, but the major influence has always been the fact that he has the power to begin with, which is something I've assumed to be the case since S1. It's the one explanation that hangs together the best considering all the evidence that has been thrown at us (though no explanation can cover the full range of contradictory material).
Lastly: is anyone ever going to tell poor Nathan that Sylar is his brother? The argument in the jungle was a great opportunity for Peter to spill the beans, because the fact that Nathan never told Peter there used to be another bother (Nathan must remember him) would be yet another accusation to toss at him. He's gonna have to find out someday!
Okay I'll field that one.
Sylar has an unhealthy need to latch onto someone like a parasite and alter his behavior to suit what he thinks they want, which he does over and over: Elle, Chandra, Mohinder, Angela, Arthur, now back to Elle. Yeesh. But there's a certain consistency about it.In complete contradiction to S2 (which we should all just forget about at this point), Sylar's psychosis stems from his "seeing" power, which messes up his mind something awful. Incidentally this is also a contradiction to Arthur's statement last week that Sylar kills because he is seeking power. But that just might be Arthur projecting his own motives on his son. So in theory losing his powers for good should be the only thing that will ever make him innocuous permanently. As long as he has his powers, he will continually have to fight some sort of urge, but whether that is specifically to kill or to understand how powers work, without being necessarily homocidal, is something I'm not quite clear on yet.
She's always been a nut. There's never been a time when she wasn't a nut. But she's smart and self-controlled enough that she can fake the sweetness when it suits her. And, being complex in the way all humans are complex, she probably does have some affection for Sylar in her own twisted way, and a frustrated wish not to be a villain which switches over to anger and a what-the-hell attitude in which she gets revenge on the world by using her powers irresponsibly. I never thought her "sweet" act was a permanent character change, just as I never expected Sylar to stay good for very long.
These are complicated people and we see one aspect of them in one scene, and then the situation changes, and we see another side. Some of the writing for Sylar has been contradictory, but some of it is an attempt to portray a character who is more complicated than most characters on TV - which, remember, are unrealistically simplistic compared with real human beings. I don't think Elle's writing has been contradictory at all, but it certainly is an attempt at complexity that is very unusual on network TV, and for the very reason that people are complaining about: it's confusing.
I don't think this show is interested in distinctions that are so black and white. I wouldn't expect any side to be all good or all bad, ever.
Eh, I can buy it.
I honestly can't envision any female who would have chemistry with Hiro. He's just too...err..neuter. And his child act is still extremely annoying. The writers need to admit they have no idea what to do with him and just kill him. Even moreso than Claire, Hiro is the character who obviously has no further role int he story and the writers are straining to figure out things for him to do. It just results in awkwardness and I don't see the situation improving.
As for the eclipse causing powers or loss thereof, weeeelll...I guess I'll see where they're going with this notion.
Shit, I was happy with this episode! I thought it had the key element I've been missing in this show - the focus on characters - and everyone hates it? I dunno what this crowd wants.
And I agree with your assessment of our Mutant Bonnie & Clyde.
They won't be changing him back to anything. Sylar has always been remorseful. Have you forgotten the FORGIVE ME room early in S1? You didn't get "remorse" out of that scene? What do you think his motive was there?
Sylar does bad things because the power makes him an addict. Then he feels bad about it. Then he does bad things again. Repeat indefinitely.
Aw cmon, you really think Peter will never get his powers back?!? They'll drag this unpowered stuff on for three or four more episodes and then come up with some way for the whole empath routine to return, but maybe with some kind of limiting factor to avoid the problem they were running into with him before.
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The whole Eclipse thing really bugs me.
First, it is impossible for a total eclipse to be visible from all of the locations shown in this episode, especialy at the same time. They are in different longitudes & latitudes. The eclipse would be ending in one time zone as it starts in another.
Second, they did not gain their powers with the first eclipse. Many have had their powers for years and Adam had his for centuries! And if an eclipse would remove their powers, Adam would have died in the first eclipse after his 150th birthday.
Third, all of them were too slow to come to the conclusion that the eclipse took away their powers and yet no one suggested that their powers will come back when it ends?
(Now will Arthur and Sylar's stolen powers come back? Will Peter and Maya's powers restart and will Mohinder's transformation continue, perhaps just reset to stage 1?)
First, it is impossible for a total eclipse to be visible from all of the locations shown in this episode, especialy at the same time. They are in different longitudes & latitudes. The eclipse would be ending in one time zone as it starts in another.
Second, they did not gain their powers with the first eclipse. Many have had their powers for years and Adam had his for centuries! And if an eclipse would remove their powers, Adam would have died in the first eclipse after his 150th birthday.
Third, all of them were too slow to come to the conclusion that the eclipse took away their powers and yet no one suggested that their powers will come back when it ends?
(Now will Arthur and Sylar's stolen powers come back? Will Peter and Maya's powers restart and will Mohinder's transformation continue, perhaps just reset to stage 1?)
I'm enjoying the show a lot more than most people here but that alone would be reason for me to keep watching.
Maybe on a really well written show like Lost or something on premium cable. Most TV writing is pretty bland and crappy, there are definitely more talented actors around than good shows to put them on.
They don't need any such gimmickry (amnesia and that sort of stuff is a bad idea for this show; they need to stop all the hokey pokey with people losing their powers and getting them back, too). Sylar already is a "good person." He's always been, but he has an addiction that makes him bad. Part of him regrets it, and part of him likes being bad.
He's just like a lot of real-life people that way. Take away the hooplah element of his superpowers, and Sylar is exactly like hundreds of millions of addicts who live on planet Earth right now. You might actually know some of them. How can his characterization be unrealistic when it comes from real life? So nobody here has ever been acquainted with the self-destructive (and destructive to everyone around him) addict type? Consider yourself fortunately but given the odds, I find it hard to believe that nobody here recognizes the inspiration for Sylar.
Yeah he could fight with Chloe some more.
They'll give him some limited power like the others have, maybe he'll be able to shoot laser beams from his eyes or something. Actually, that's a good idea, perhaps he could have to wear glasses all the time and become just as lame and boring as the character I'm suggesting they rip off.
I just think it's hilarious that Heroes' idea of a big two parter is to take everyone's powers away. That's just comedy gold right there.
It's so easy! Give Peter the sponge power but mangled so that every time he absorbs a new power, and every time he uses any powers, it harms him in some way, starts to affect his health.
That would be the true test of his empathy, if he's willing to sacrifice himself to use his powers to help others. It would also torment him to have to be selfish and not save that drowning person easily by using TK because if he does, he's taking one more step towards crippling or even killing himself.
And the whole point of Peter is for him to be tormented and emo waa waa waa. The writers need to remember why they invented the idiot to begin with. And now that Sylar is a poor pathetic helpless addict, he and Peter can have a pity party. That should be popular around here!
That would be the true test of his empathy, if he's willing to sacrifice himself to use his powers to help others. It would also torment him to have to be selfish and not save that drowning person easily by using TK because if he does, he's taking one more step towards crippling or even killing himself.
And the whole point of Peter is for him to be tormented and emo waa waa waa. The writers need to remember why they invented the idiot to begin with. And now that Sylar is a poor pathetic helpless addict, he and Peter can have a pity party. That should be popular around here!
I'm popping in at the end here without reading the thread - has anyone mentioned the scientifivc preposterousness of the eclipse itself?
An eclipse is not a "world wide event." The shadow of the moon covers a small area on the Earth and tracks along a narrow path. Totality is fairly local and occurs at a specific place at a specific point during the eclipse. Totality can NOT occur in Kansas, NYC and Haiti at the same time.
Also, that first show of the sun and moon side by side, with the moon showing almost half full -
?? These guys know the moon is lit BY the sun (which was behind it), right?
An eclipse is not a "world wide event." The shadow of the moon covers a small area on the Earth and tracks along a narrow path. Totality is fairly local and occurs at a specific place at a specific point during the eclipse. Totality can NOT occur in Kansas, NYC and Haiti at the same time.
Also, that first show of the sun and moon side by side, with the moon showing almost half full -
?? These guys know the moon is lit BY the sun (which was behind it), right?A Clockwork Lim
Lieutenant Commander
What they need to do with Hiro is simple; turn him into Future Hiro already. We've seen that he matures and becomes a significantly more serious individual. They just need to aim him that way rather than this asinine age-regression bullshit.
I liked Hiro and Charlie myself. I agree the writers don't seem to know what to do with him exactly at least since Season 1.
Oh yeah. It's been mentioned.
How much do you want to bet that "Future Hiro" will be forgotten and retconned?
There is a way to turn Hiro into older-Hiro. By establishing that he didn't lose his memories. His ten-year old self has actually switched places with his normal self as a defense mechanism in some quantum-leap kind of way.
They find a way to reverse it, but Hiro overshoots and bam there he is... 5 years older than he used to... Do I make any sense here?
They find a way to reverse it, but Hiro overshoots and bam there he is... 5 years older than he used to... Do I make any sense here?
I've posted this before, but I think the original idea that he could borrow powers when they were in proximity was a better way to go. With the added twist that he can keep powers of relatives, so he can fly and heal, for example. But another twist that would put things over the top and make him and Sylar true arch enemies is if he could keep a power if someone died in his proximity. Would Peter kill someone to take their power in the name of the greater good?
Suffice to say that I'm enjoying Season 4 of Prison Break a lot more than Heroes right now.