Here is how I think the federation works without needing money.

[velour]

The problem with "In the Cards" is that all the things that Jake did, could have easily been a story about a kid working summer jobs to save up money for the baseball card. Currency just provides an easier means of exchange because it is an agreed upon value.

Now that you have mentioned Jake, Jake's situation on DS9 made me wonder how do teenagers of the 24th century Federation prepare themselves for their adult lives. As you said, the episode could have been, but wasn't, about learning about the necessity to earn what you want to acquire and about developing a good work ethic.

Before Keiko started the school on DS9, what exactly did Jake do all day long? He wasn't working, he had no school to go to. And I don't remember him being trained for something, like him being apprentice. It seems like in a post scarcity society, kids might get spoiled and learn to be complacent. Or was Jake just an outlier, and not the typical teen?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Jake and Nog just hung around the station, goofing off and causing trouble, before Keiko started the school.

And, IIRC, Rom then pulled Nog out of the school - but Jake taught Nog to read anyway, which kick-started their friendship.

 

[velour]

I just read a quick summary about the episode, "In the Cards" to refresh my memory. I wanted to correct something that I wrote. In that ep, Jake did do some temporary odd jobs, but it was more like hustling and bartering and trade offs than a structured job.

 

[Ithekro]

But here's the kicker: moving forward--Discovery/Kelvin/whatever--it actually makes sense to change this position, especially under the umbrella of provocative Star Trek progressiveness.

I seem to recall that the Kelvin Universe also keeps both stances: That Starfleet is not the Military and that the Federation doesn't use money anymore. So those are still things kept by people who write for Star Trek.

 

[Tenacity]

I seem to recall that the Kelvin Universe also keeps both stances: That Starfleet is not the Military and ...

As was made obvious in Into Darkness when Kirk's ship was loaded up with torpedoes that he was under orders to fire on the Klingon homeworld.

 

[RomulanCommander]

My Take: the no need for money is more metaphorical than anything, and best not thought about too much. The no money thing n Star Trek is not very realistic by today's standards, but it was a Roddenberry ideal of Utopia. It's a 1960s hippie commune ideal, that later versions of Star Trek, like DS9, tried to phase in a retcon.

It's hard to try to imagine or explain, and like the technology, when you put real world economics in practice, you can't. But my take is that on worlds like Earth, Vulcan, or other UFP founding worlds that reached a certain level of technology, or on Starfleet ships, there probably really is no need for money. When you have replicators to make just about anything and warp ships that can go anywhere, you really don't need money. Since money is obsolete at that point, people have to find other motivators.

But clearly other cultures still use money, and the UFP has to offer some kind of incentive to trade with them. I think newer members or perspective worlds looking to join the Federation, have some sort of deal worked out where Federation resources are exchanged for credit in those worlds' economies, some how, until they adapt their economies to no longer need money, either. Non-Federation worlds wanting to trade with the Federation but not join it, and who are still on a monetary system, are also probably granted resources in exchange for credits so that the two sides can interact. When individuals from the UFP go to such worlds, they probably replicate items they can sell for local money.

If you start going deeper than that, and try to make it work in a real world situation, you'll just end up disappointed.

 

[Tenacity]

I seem to recall that the Kelvin Universe also keeps both stances: That ... the Federation doesn't use money anymore.

Then why in the first Abrams-universe movie did Kirk try to buy Uhura a drink?

 

[Ithekro]

As was made obvious in Into Darkness when Kirk's ship was loaded up with torpedoes that he was under orders to fire on the Klingon homeworld.

Then why in the first Abrams-universe movie did Kirk try to buy Uhura a drink?

Not ask me, ask the writers that keep insisting that both aspects are true and write that it is true for their stories set in that universe.

 

[velour]

Economics is not magic.

That may be so. But the replicator is the alchemy of the Trek universe. The replicator greases the wheels of the Trek economy and makes the Trek post scarcity society possible.

 

[fireproof78]

That may be so. But the replicator is the alchemy of the Trek universe. The replicator greases the wheels of the Trek economy and makes the Trek post scarcity society possible.

Indeed. But, there are implications of post-scarcity that can be hypothesized, and the consequences of them can then be explored. That's the whole point of science fiction is to explore the consequences of science and advancements in technology. To say that all economic rules immediately go out the window just because of post-scarcity world is a rather large leap.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That may be so. But the replicator is the alchemy of the Trek universe. The replicator greases the wheels of the Trek economy and makes the Trek post scarcity society possible.

And who or what keeps the replicators running?

 

[Ithekro]

And who or what keeps the replicators running?

Chief O'Brien and Rom on DS9. Most Federation units seem to be much more efficient than the Cardassian models on that station since it seems to be rare for the chief engineer on a starship to need to repair the units. Most cases it seem to be alterations to adjust the taste setting, or correct the heat modulation of the end product.

For the worlds at large? Who knows? It was never important to the story. Neither was the economy. The concept was simply that the Federation doesn't need money, all the needs of the people are taken care of already. That was as far as the train of thought went, so that's were we are stuck in terms of canon. The currency-less economy of the Federation (or perhaps just the humans) is a thing. It is meant to be accepted, and then the plot continues on however the author wills it.


It is a feature of the setting, but not a thing explored because Star Trek is not about economics of the Federation. The idea that they didn't have money was actually a means of sidestepping the need to even talk about economics and concepts, like "just how much does it cost to waste 10 torpedoes at a time at empty space? Or how much is all this replicated food cost, or how rich does as planet need to be to built a Galaxy-class starship and how much goes out of the coffers when she pushes past Warp 9?" These are questions best left alone in a high adventure space action TV show, that tries to tell morality plays about current events with a sci-fi mask on. Any economic problem will be from some alien species for our heroes to either figure out, or mock as so old fashion that we (humans) are above such things now. The money-less economy was not to be placed under the microscope, it was intended to be accepted as a feature of the show.

Thus I take the stance: "Its there, deal with it. If you want to find a way to make it work, fine, but you can't remove it just because you can't make it work".

 

[Tenacity]

Not ask me, ask the writers that keep insisting that both aspects are true and write that it is true for their stories set in that universe.

Has anyone in the Abrams-universe ever said no money?

 

[Ithekro]

It came up in one of that universe's comics.

 

[fireproof78]

And who or what keeps the replicators running?

Tribbles.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I knew it.

srsly though, they had better hope that those replicators can't be hacked. If the entire replicator network comes crashing down, what happens to the much-vaunted "no money" society then?

 

[Nyotarules]

^ Jake and Nog just hung around the station, goofing off and causing trouble, before Keiko started the school.

And, IIRC, Rom then pulled Nog out of the school - but Jake taught Nog to read anyway, which kick-started their friendship.

The irony of a Starfleet officer neglecting his kid's education...

 

[Nyotarules]

As was made obvious in Into Darkness when Kirk's ship was loaded up with torpedoes that he was under orders to fire on the Klingon homeworld.

Because this is what explorers do. Explore first, then ask questions later.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The irony of a Starfleet officer neglecting his kid's education...

Sisko wasn't neglectful. He was a single father, so there was no one who could homeschool Jake while Sisko ran the station. And it wasn't his fault that the station had no school before Keiko started one.

 

[Nyotarules]

Sisko wasn't neglectful. Wasn't his fault that the station had no school before Keiko started one.

So if Keiko did not start the school the Bajoran state was happy to not educate their own children that lived on the station? And the Federation wanted these people to join them? Dukat was right, the Cardessian occupation forced the Bajorans to modernise their society and become galactic power brokers.