Hercules and Xena...thoughts?
- Thread starter RoJoHen
- Start date
^ Ahhh, thanks (also)!
I was thinking it was some obscure Tron reference, to tell the truth...
Cheers,
-CM-
I was thinking it was some obscure Tron reference, to tell the truth...
Cheers,
-CM-
I'm not much of a "Hercules" fan, but that's mostly because I haven't had many opportunities to see it. I saw a few episodes as a kid and liked them, but I haven't had access to a channel that repeated them and couldn't be bothered to go back and re-visit the series on DVD. I remember liking a lot of the supporting characters like Aphordite and Ares more than the two main characters (although I liked them too), so I'm glad they appeared so much on "Xena" so I could see them again without watching "Hercules".
I just revisited the Xena series for the first time since childhood recently and I think this just may be the most inconsistent show I've ever seen. So many of the episodes are so gratingly melodramatic that they infuriate me, while almost as many infuriate me with how over-the-top slapstick they are. On the other hand, there are episodes that hit that sweet spot where they're slapstick or straight drama but just subtle enough to not be excessive in either direction so they end up absolutely sublime. When the show does slapstick or drama without going too extreme with either, it does both with more cleverness, creativity, and real emotional depth and impact than almost any show I've ever seen.
When it fails, it fails huge, though. For example: Too silly or corny - "The Bitter Suite", "A Good Day", "Married with Fishsticks", "Endgame", "Motherhood", "A Friend in Need".
The problem with a lot of those is how convoluted the story arcs get and how ridiculous all the supernatural stuff is, with resurrections, life after death, etc. I think the whole series would have been better off if they hadn't bothered with all the absurdity of Gabrielle and Xena having evil spawn. The worst offender is "A Friend in Need" which I now think about the way many people think about "These Are the Voyages..." on Enterprise. "Soul Posession", the penultimate episode of the series, would have been a perfect series finale. Instead, it was followed by a painfully overwrought and overambitious two parter that was boring as hell, full of terrible characters, ignored the wonderful cast of supporting characters, and ended the series on a disappointingly lame, uninspired, and unnecessarily dour note.
Some of the arcs are great, though, like Caesar's rivalry with Xena, Ares and Aphrodite losing their powers, and the gradual (sort of) reform of Autolycus, who is my favourite supporting character. Other than the dull episode where they're trapped on a boat, you can be sure any episode featuring Autolycus is going to be fantastic. This is a show that I love if I can just watch selected episodes from every season, but I don't know how anyone can watch it all the way through and not go crazy over the inconsistency.
Some of my favourite episodes in no order (relatively subtle drama, pitch-perfect comedy): "Warrior...Princess...Tramp?" (Meg rules!), "Destiny/The Quest", "Been There, Done That" (following in the grand tradition of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", "The X-Files", AND TNG with a thoroughly entertaining episode about things repeating over and over again), "The King of Assassins", "The Quill is Mightier...", "Forgiven", "A Tale of Two Muses", "The Ides of March", "Old Ares Had a Farm", and the delightfully meta "You Are There".
I just revisited the Xena series for the first time since childhood recently and I think this just may be the most inconsistent show I've ever seen. So many of the episodes are so gratingly melodramatic that they infuriate me, while almost as many infuriate me with how over-the-top slapstick they are. On the other hand, there are episodes that hit that sweet spot where they're slapstick or straight drama but just subtle enough to not be excessive in either direction so they end up absolutely sublime. When the show does slapstick or drama without going too extreme with either, it does both with more cleverness, creativity, and real emotional depth and impact than almost any show I've ever seen.
When it fails, it fails huge, though. For example: Too silly or corny - "The Bitter Suite", "A Good Day", "Married with Fishsticks", "Endgame", "Motherhood", "A Friend in Need".
The problem with a lot of those is how convoluted the story arcs get and how ridiculous all the supernatural stuff is, with resurrections, life after death, etc. I think the whole series would have been better off if they hadn't bothered with all the absurdity of Gabrielle and Xena having evil spawn. The worst offender is "A Friend in Need" which I now think about the way many people think about "These Are the Voyages..." on Enterprise. "Soul Posession", the penultimate episode of the series, would have been a perfect series finale. Instead, it was followed by a painfully overwrought and overambitious two parter that was boring as hell, full of terrible characters, ignored the wonderful cast of supporting characters, and ended the series on a disappointingly lame, uninspired, and unnecessarily dour note.
Some of the arcs are great, though, like Caesar's rivalry with Xena, Ares and Aphrodite losing their powers, and the gradual (sort of) reform of Autolycus, who is my favourite supporting character. Other than the dull episode where they're trapped on a boat, you can be sure any episode featuring Autolycus is going to be fantastic. This is a show that I love if I can just watch selected episodes from every season, but I don't know how anyone can watch it all the way through and not go crazy over the inconsistency.
Some of my favourite episodes in no order (relatively subtle drama, pitch-perfect comedy): "Warrior...Princess...Tramp?" (Meg rules!), "Destiny/The Quest", "Been There, Done That" (following in the grand tradition of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", "The X-Files", AND TNG with a thoroughly entertaining episode about things repeating over and over again), "The King of Assassins", "The Quill is Mightier...", "Forgiven", "A Tale of Two Muses", "The Ides of March", "Old Ares Had a Farm", and the delightfully meta "You Are There".
Admiring a woman's beauty doesn't automatically make one a chauvinist. It's only a problem if you ignore the rest of her attributes.
I admire every single one of Lucy and Renee's attributes, trust me!
As much as I was obsessed with XENA, I admit that it got a little too bipolar in its final seasons, swinging wildly between zany slapstick episodes and serious, tragic episodes, so that it almost felt like two different shows, airing on alternate weeks. The show was better when it mixed drama and comedy into a single episode.
That being said, I can't resist composing my own Top Ten List:
1) "Hooves and Harlots"--centaurs vs. amazons. This is the ep that hooked me on the the show in the first place.
2) "Altared States"--the Abraham and Isaac ep. This is the ep where the celebrated lesbian subtext really started coming to the fore. "Ohmigod," I thought the first time I saw this ep, "they're doing it on purpose . . . ."
(As my friend John Ordover once sagely observed, "XENA is its own fanfiction.")
3) "Callisto"--the first appearances of Joxer and Callisto. Plus, one of the show's best action sequences. (The ladder fight.)
4) "A Day in the Life."--Possibly my favorite ep. One priceless moment after another.
5) "A Necessary Evil." Xena and Callisto versus Lady Heather from CSI. What's not to like?
6) "Been There, Done That."--Xena does "Groundhog Day." Hilarious.
7) "The Debt." Xena's secret past in China. Gorgeous and ravishing and dramatic.
8) "The Bitter Suite." XENA does the musical thing before BUFFY, and just as well.
9) "Crusader." Xena competes with a Joan of Arc clone for Gabby's, er, loyalty. With Kathryn Morris from COLD CASE as Xena's latest rival.
10) "The Ides of March"-- Xena and Julius Caesar finally get their revenge on each other. A really gripping and dramatic season cliffhanger.
Honorable mentions: "Mortal Beloved," "The Price," "A Comedy of Eros," "Is There a Doctor in the House?", "The Greater Good," "A Solstice Carol," "Sacrifice," "Locked Up and Tied Down," "Fish, Femmes, and Gems," "Devi," "The Quill is Mightier," "The Return of the Valkyrie," and "The Xena Scrolls."
Avoid at all costs: "Married with Fishsticks."
That being said, I can't resist composing my own Top Ten List:
1) "Hooves and Harlots"--centaurs vs. amazons. This is the ep that hooked me on the the show in the first place.
2) "Altared States"--the Abraham and Isaac ep. This is the ep where the celebrated lesbian subtext really started coming to the fore. "Ohmigod," I thought the first time I saw this ep, "they're doing it on purpose . . . ."
(As my friend John Ordover once sagely observed, "XENA is its own fanfiction.")
3) "Callisto"--the first appearances of Joxer and Callisto. Plus, one of the show's best action sequences. (The ladder fight.)
4) "A Day in the Life."--Possibly my favorite ep. One priceless moment after another.
5) "A Necessary Evil." Xena and Callisto versus Lady Heather from CSI. What's not to like?
6) "Been There, Done That."--Xena does "Groundhog Day." Hilarious.
7) "The Debt." Xena's secret past in China. Gorgeous and ravishing and dramatic.
8) "The Bitter Suite." XENA does the musical thing before BUFFY, and just as well.
9) "Crusader." Xena competes with a Joan of Arc clone for Gabby's, er, loyalty. With Kathryn Morris from COLD CASE as Xena's latest rival.
10) "The Ides of March"-- Xena and Julius Caesar finally get their revenge on each other. A really gripping and dramatic season cliffhanger.
Honorable mentions: "Mortal Beloved," "The Price," "A Comedy of Eros," "Is There a Doctor in the House?", "The Greater Good," "A Solstice Carol," "Sacrifice," "Locked Up and Tied Down," "Fish, Femmes, and Gems," "Devi," "The Quill is Mightier," "The Return of the Valkyrie," and "The Xena Scrolls."
Avoid at all costs: "Married with Fishsticks."
"Adventures in the Sin Trade" is one of my favorites. The image of the "northern Amazons" standing around in purgatory is one of the great moments of cinematography in a series chock-full of great cinematography.
It's like someone told the DP "Give me the very definition of the word 'bleak.'"
Seconded. I turned it off less than halfway through. And it wasn't the only time that season that I tuned out.
I actually watched "Fishsticks" for the first time at a "Xena Night" at Meow Mix, a bar in the East Village that was the unofficial nexus of Xena fandom. Trust me, the crowd that night was distinctly underwhelmed . . . and those were hardcore Xena fans.
To be fair, I suspect my dislike of that ep is colored by the memory of sharing the collective disappointment of an entire room full of Xena fans.
To be fair, I suspect my dislike of that ep is colored by the memory of sharing the collective disappointment of an entire room full of Xena fans.
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Well, for what it's worth, I watched it by myself and I still considered it the worst episode they ever did.
Again, I agree. That was a great disappointment. Instead of writing new songs, they just did covers of existing songs, and the story was a feeble excuse for stringing them together, a great letdown after the power and importance of "The Bitter Suite."
However, I did like the way "Lyre, Lyre" covered the song "Always Something There to Remind Me," if that's it's correct title. I heard that song a lot on the PA system at the bookstore where I once worked, so it was interesting to hear that light, upbeat, cheerful-sounding romantic song reinterpreted as a heavy-metal paean to unhealthy obsession. (The context being that Ares was under a spell that made him fall obsessively in love with Gabrielle.)
However, I did like the way "Lyre, Lyre" covered the song "Always Something There to Remind Me," if that's it's correct title. I heard that song a lot on the PA system at the bookstore where I once worked, so it was interesting to hear that light, upbeat, cheerful-sounding romantic song reinterpreted as a heavy-metal paean to unhealthy obsession. (The context being that Ares was under a spell that made him fall obsessively in love with Gabrielle.)
It is Draco, not Ares, who is under the spell from baby Bliss's arrow.
I certainly wouldn't have objected to an extra hour of Xena and Gabby as vampires . . . .
Oh, hell, the vampire episode? I loathed that one almost as much as "Married with Fishsticks."
Since we are talking "attributes" - dare I mention that Aphrodite was HOT!!! Gaby's thighs were alway a little too meaty and Xena (to me) was always somewhat asexual - it's hard to explain - by all rights she should have been hotter but never struck me as hot. (Don't get me wrong - Lucy and Renee are both fine actressess and I enjoyed watching them but somehow both of them are not what I would describe as HOT) But the actress playing Aphrodite was very aptly chosen! A love goddess to play the love goddess!
^ Well, since everyone is listing who they found hot, may I mention that I particularly enjoyed the show whenever Ares was in an episode? 
On a more serious note, here's something that you may find interesting - from a Xena fansite, a comparison between Xena and Kira Nerys.
Dark Warrior Pasts: Kira and Xena
The Once and Future Warrior: Parallels between Colonel Kira Nerys and Xena, the Warrior Princess
Some of those they list are completely superfluous and silly (both actresses were pregnant during the show? Add Daphne from Frasier to the list!
), while others make a more sense. Character comparisons are particularly fun - some really work (Ares/Dukat? Autolycus/Quark? Marcus/Bareil? or even Callisto/Silaran Prin?), some make me grin widely (Gabrielle/Odo?)... and then some just make me laugh out loud:
On a more serious note, here's something that you may find interesting - from a Xena fansite, a comparison between Xena and Kira Nerys.
Dark Warrior Pasts: Kira and Xena
The Once and Future Warrior: Parallels between Colonel Kira Nerys and Xena, the Warrior Princess
Some of those they list are completely superfluous and silly (both actresses were pregnant during the show? Add Daphne from Frasier to the list!
), while others make a more sense. Character comparisons are particularly fun - some really work (Ares/Dukat? Autolycus/Quark? Marcus/Bareil? or even Callisto/Silaran Prin?), some make me grin widely (Gabrielle/Odo?)... and then some just make me laugh out loud:
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**LOL** I, too, thought that episode rocked. Women gone bad, indeed. Fangs and all.
Gatekeeper
I'm doing this sort of analysis at the top of my head. Perhaps it might turn out into insightful or something.
The Issue of Inspired Writing in Hercules
The first season only had some handful of writers. There was Andrew Dettman and Daniel Truly who had written the 4 out of 5 telemovies (the season 0). They wrote 3 episodes - Vanishing Dead, Festival and Road to Calydon. Then they were out. They're style was general pulp with a heartwarming message I guess. You can sense they're pulpness by their characters like that creepy blind man. When they left, they also took that sort of vibe with them. Season 0 and season 1 still feel like they could belong in some Weird Tales magazine.
Then there was some Steve Roberts - a guy who does scripts for cartoons - for two episodes. Okay he's unimportant. Forget him.
Then there were Nora Kay Foster and Adam Armus, who now work in Heroes. They left for Xena after the first season.
What I'm trying to say that after the first season only two guys remained - Robert Bielak and John Schulian. True, they mostly did the majority of first season anyway.
Anyway, we're now in season 2 and you just have these two guys. They're style is... conservative, family-friendly, christian? At least John Schulian fits that type. When you watch his episodes where Iolaus is one of the three wise man and all that talk how that makes him feel, or the episode about that prostitute who became a prostitute because she lost her baby and couldn't bear to be with her husband anymore... there's that 7th Heaven vibe to those episodes. People are all nice and broken, Jesus loves you all. He also created Xena, and I think that Xena redemption arc in Hercules fits that 7th Heaven impression I get from him.
Robert Bielak is kinda same. I'm not really able to get a clear impression of Robert. He's kinda same, only he delivered more interesting episodes.
Then there's also the "shitload of oneshots" aspect to season 2. Outside of Robert Bielak-John Schulian, season 2 has a lot of oneshot writers who do their thing and leave forever. Those oneshots really embody the most typical tropes in their writing. And that also contributes to season 2's rather lacklustre vibe.
Where season 1 has a pretty cool arc as it's last episodes, season 2 is just one big village-of-the-week ending with a clip show.
Whereas Xena got better with each episode (Xena season 1 aired at the same time with Herc season 2) and ended with Callisto who brought something new and awesome.
Okay now we're in season 3. Season 3 actually picks up a lot of new writers, who become the new resident writers for the show - Paul Robert Coyle, Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzmann and some other names. But the season still belongs to John Schulian and Robert Bielak who do their family friendly thing. But the latter half of the season brings a lot of new air to the show. The Golden Hind trilogy really brings a much needed edge. It's also the first appearance of Ares the Kevin Tod Smith in the series, who is really an awesome guy.
Now we're in season 4. Schulian is out. Biealak is now an executive, but I don't think he did much because the episode which is about the writers doesn't have him in it at all.
Season 4 belongs to the newly arrived writers (the ones who came on board in season 3) and it's just crazy. Some people here said that season 4 was too wtf, but that wtf is what for me the entire series is about. It's goofy, it's quirky, it's crazy, it has more regular guest characters and for the first time since season 1, it also ends with an arc.
Paul Robert Coyle really shines in season 4 with his Mirror Universe episode and War Stories and Armageddon I.
Now there are too different directions - there's the Paul Robert Coyle direction which is more season 4 but perhaps restraining the overall wtf-ness of it all. And there's the Orci/Kurtzmann direction - let's make a really epic dark drama! So season 5 is both of them. Really crazy stuff mixed with that "really epic dark drama!" And season 5 was pretty damn awesome.
Now we're in season 6. Orci and Kurtzmann are executive producers. Kevin Sorbo wants to leave, but decides to stay for the last season. TPTB are saying "ah, it's just one season, then just fuck it all and end this!" Only 8 episodes about Herc and Iolaus having fun for the last time, ending with them going towards the sunset. Okay, actually the finale tied up a lot of things, but most of that continous stuff it deals with was introduced in late season 3/season 4.
Xena on the other hand, got it's resident writers, who stayed from season 1 til the end, right from the beginning. And I guess that's why Xena started dabbling so much in continous storyline and other continous stuff like that. Season 1 is a bit of an excpetion, but most of Xena seasons have a clear beginning and a clear ending. Season 4 especially is like that, with it foreshadowing it's end in the first episode. And things like these made Xena much more popular. Because Herc only started doing more continous stuff after Xena had done it and beaten Herc in the ratings. Quite a lot of Xena fans haven't even seen Hercules.
Um.. that was my analysis thingy. Hope it was insightful in some way. I have to say that I did this from memory, so I could be completely wrong about everything. But I did put a lot of thought into this.
The Issue of Inspired Writing in Hercules
The first season only had some handful of writers. There was Andrew Dettman and Daniel Truly who had written the 4 out of 5 telemovies (the season 0). They wrote 3 episodes - Vanishing Dead, Festival and Road to Calydon. Then they were out. They're style was general pulp with a heartwarming message I guess. You can sense they're pulpness by their characters like that creepy blind man. When they left, they also took that sort of vibe with them. Season 0 and season 1 still feel like they could belong in some Weird Tales magazine.
Then there was some Steve Roberts - a guy who does scripts for cartoons - for two episodes. Okay he's unimportant. Forget him.
Then there were Nora Kay Foster and Adam Armus, who now work in Heroes. They left for Xena after the first season.
What I'm trying to say that after the first season only two guys remained - Robert Bielak and John Schulian. True, they mostly did the majority of first season anyway.
Anyway, we're now in season 2 and you just have these two guys. They're style is... conservative, family-friendly, christian? At least John Schulian fits that type. When you watch his episodes where Iolaus is one of the three wise man and all that talk how that makes him feel, or the episode about that prostitute who became a prostitute because she lost her baby and couldn't bear to be with her husband anymore... there's that 7th Heaven vibe to those episodes. People are all nice and broken, Jesus loves you all. He also created Xena, and I think that Xena redemption arc in Hercules fits that 7th Heaven impression I get from him.
Robert Bielak is kinda same. I'm not really able to get a clear impression of Robert. He's kinda same, only he delivered more interesting episodes.
Then there's also the "shitload of oneshots" aspect to season 2. Outside of Robert Bielak-John Schulian, season 2 has a lot of oneshot writers who do their thing and leave forever. Those oneshots really embody the most typical tropes in their writing. And that also contributes to season 2's rather lacklustre vibe.
Where season 1 has a pretty cool arc as it's last episodes, season 2 is just one big village-of-the-week ending with a clip show.
Whereas Xena got better with each episode (Xena season 1 aired at the same time with Herc season 2) and ended with Callisto who brought something new and awesome.
Okay now we're in season 3. Season 3 actually picks up a lot of new writers, who become the new resident writers for the show - Paul Robert Coyle, Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzmann and some other names. But the season still belongs to John Schulian and Robert Bielak who do their family friendly thing. But the latter half of the season brings a lot of new air to the show. The Golden Hind trilogy really brings a much needed edge. It's also the first appearance of Ares the Kevin Tod Smith in the series, who is really an awesome guy.
Now we're in season 4. Schulian is out. Biealak is now an executive, but I don't think he did much because the episode which is about the writers doesn't have him in it at all.
Season 4 belongs to the newly arrived writers (the ones who came on board in season 3) and it's just crazy. Some people here said that season 4 was too wtf, but that wtf is what for me the entire series is about. It's goofy, it's quirky, it's crazy, it has more regular guest characters and for the first time since season 1, it also ends with an arc.
Paul Robert Coyle really shines in season 4 with his Mirror Universe episode and War Stories and Armageddon I.
Now there are too different directions - there's the Paul Robert Coyle direction which is more season 4 but perhaps restraining the overall wtf-ness of it all. And there's the Orci/Kurtzmann direction - let's make a really epic dark drama! So season 5 is both of them. Really crazy stuff mixed with that "really epic dark drama!" And season 5 was pretty damn awesome.
Now we're in season 6. Orci and Kurtzmann are executive producers. Kevin Sorbo wants to leave, but decides to stay for the last season. TPTB are saying "ah, it's just one season, then just fuck it all and end this!" Only 8 episodes about Herc and Iolaus having fun for the last time, ending with them going towards the sunset. Okay, actually the finale tied up a lot of things, but most of that continous stuff it deals with was introduced in late season 3/season 4.
Xena on the other hand, got it's resident writers, who stayed from season 1 til the end, right from the beginning. And I guess that's why Xena started dabbling so much in continous storyline and other continous stuff like that. Season 1 is a bit of an excpetion, but most of Xena seasons have a clear beginning and a clear ending. Season 4 especially is like that, with it foreshadowing it's end in the first episode. And things like these made Xena much more popular. Because Herc only started doing more continous stuff after Xena had done it and beaten Herc in the ratings. Quite a lot of Xena fans haven't even seen Hercules.
Um.. that was my analysis thingy. Hope it was insightful in some way. I have to say that I did this from memory, so I could be completely wrong about everything. But I did put a lot of thought into this.
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