Help me understand the situation with the Klingons and the war

[Charles Phipps]

Why?

Because the Klingon Empire is at war with each other and they'd like to stop that. If the United States was having a Civil War and you wanted them to stop, putting them to war against the French is a decent idea.

Why?

One of the lazy advantages of an "exoticized" alien culture is not having to convincingly motivate them - just have them grunt "honor!" in Klingon through awful dentures.

What's unconvincing? Seriously? I'm not sure what your objection is.

 

[Longinus]

So these Klingon houses do not like each other, but because T'Kuvma starts a fight, they now will work together? Hasn't there been battles with the Federation before? (Yes, there has been, they're specifically mentioned.) What about this battle is such that they now unite, when they apparently didn't before? T'Kuvma's speech? They didn't seem to respect him much before, and after the battle they just strand his followers there for six months, so they don't seem to be too interested in his ideology.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Klingons are bestial religiously fanatical cannibals who lost the ability to use a universal translater, have had cloaking technology and massive battleships for thousands of years before Kahless, no longer have any connection to the Hur'q, value their dead nearly more than their living and engage in duplicitous tactics and outright lies to start wars on innocents for glory.

• Klingons being bestial and fanatical is hardly new.
• Neither is the cannibalism. Again that was established in DS9. Even so, I'm not sure its normal behaviour. Seemed like an act of desperation.
• I don't think we have an age on the ship or the cloaking device, just on the bodies attached to the ship.
• The Hur'g not being mentioned is not the same as them never existing. Even so they invaded Qo'noS nearly a 1000 years before TOS/DISCO. Maybe the ship is of Hur'q origins
• Cultures change. I can't believe the Klingons have had the same culture for thousands of years.
• Since when have the Klingons not engaged in duplicitous tactics and outright lies or been willing to start wars on innocents in the name of glory?

 

[Kemaiku]

My post wasn't exactly serious, but alright.

 

[Charles Phipps]

So these Klingon houses do not like each other, but because T'Kuvma starts a fight, they now will work together? Hasn't there been battles with the Federation before? (Yes, there has been, they're specifically mentioned.) What about this battle is such that they now unite, when they apparently didn't before? T'Kuvma's speech? They didn't seem to respect him much before, and after the battle they just strand his followers there for six months, so they don't seem to be too interested in his ideology.

The point the Federation is on their borders was the main one.

It's also the fact T'Kuvma is one house but is able to fight a Federation fleet to a standstill.

I.e. "They're here and we can beat them."

 

[Kor]

The Klingon Empire in this period is apparently like Japan in its Sengoku period. It's nominally supposed to be a single Empire, but there are all these lords with their own domains and spheres of influence, basically acting independently and not really answering to anyone.

Apparently there is no central leadership with actual power over everyone. The High Council is a bunch of independent rulers purely representing their own interests, rather than working together for the good of a truly unified Empire. If there actually is a figure with a leadership title such as chancellor or emperor, we haven't seen this individual, and the position must not hold any true authority. A leader of a house such as T'Kuvma or Kol may become de facto leader of the Empire if they gain enough influence over enough of the other houses and obtain their loyalty.

Kor

 

[STR]

Also the ship happens to be in their enemies territory. It's one thing to warp in during peacetime, it's another when it's a war and everyone is on high alert. This is probably the first chance they've had to recover it.

Yeah...who knows how long it took them to realize T'Kuvma's flagship was still mostly intact. The Klingon fleet had warped away, they didn't witness anything directly. No doubt they heard reports from the Federation that T'Kuvma was killed and his ship mangled. Perhaps Kol was the first to try and confirm it and was delighted to find the ship almost operational and still with a crew.

It just took him 6 months because a) war b) the battle was behind Fed lines c) Kol was busy d) finding anything of value was a longshot.

Meanwhile, Voq spent the immediate aftermath of the battle hiding in the debris field while Starfleet recovered survivors and other items of value (which apparently didn't extend to the Shenzhou itself).

It makes more sense now than when I first watched it. It's not perfect, but it fits about as well as previous events in the franchise.

In "Vulcan Hello", T'Kumva finds and turns on the ancient beacon of Kahless. This summons the various Klingon houses to him. There he persuades them to war on the Federation because "the Federation lies" and they've forgotten what it means to be Klingons. Apparently this works and the war starts.

One thing to remember about wars is that the stated justification for them (casus belli) are not always why they actually start. Like in TNG Redemption. Nobody thought Toral was a better warrior or leader (or that his claim was in any way legitimate) than Gowron, but various houses followed his banner anyway for strategic reasons.

 

[rhllot]

Okay, I'm now four episodes into Discovery I don't understand the situation with the Klingons. At all. As in, I don't get their motivations for the war and who is leading them now 6 months later.

Here's my understanding of the situation:
-- In "Vulcan Hello", T'Kumva finds and turns on the ancient beacon of Kahless. This summons the various Klingon houses to him. There he persuades them to war on the Federation because "the Federation lies" and they've forgotten what it means to be Klingons. Apparently this works and the war starts.

-- In the "Butcher's Knife" we find out that the war has been going on for six months. The Federation is developing new weapons, etc. The Klingons are attacking but Voq, the new disciple of T'Kumva has been sitting on his keester in a broken vessel that happens to be the only ship in the Klingon fleet with a cloaking device. It's taken them 6 months to affect repairs in which time he and his crew have been seemingly forgotten. They're starving and no one has come to their aid-- even though their ship has technology that no other Klingon vessel possesses.

I don't get it. The excuse to start the war was flimsy at best. Seriously. There's literally no motivation for it to be happening other than "canon says so." However, the fact that Voq's ship has been sitting there for half a year makes even less sense to me. It has a cloak-- which means that it should have been a priority to salvage and recover that tech. However, in half a year neither the Federation nor the Klingons have gone back to check on it? At all?

Furthermore-- if "T'Kumva's annointed successor" has been absent, who is leading this war? There has to be a central figure otherwise a United Federation of Planets could have just rolled over the individual warring houses like a steam roller.

Seriously-- what am I missing? Is this just bad writing?

klingons do not need to have human-like reasons to go to war, they have a culture based on war going to war for whatever reason is normal for them

 

[Kor]

klingons do not need to have human-like reasons to go to war, they have a culture based on war going to war for whatever reason is normal for them

This. As far back as "Errand of Mercy," Kirk said, "War is their way of life."

Kor

 

[Mudd]

Because the Klingon Empire is at war with each other and they'd like to stop that. If the United States was having a Civil War and you wanted them to stop, putting them to war against the French is a decent idea.

Where did you study history?

 

[Charles Phipps]

Where did you study history?

I see you've never heard of Genghis Khan.

Seriously, are you going to bother discussing the episodes or are you just going to put them down?

 

[Mudd]

I see you've never heard of Genghis Khan.

Oh, was he involved in the American Civil War as well?

You still haven't explained plausibly why the Klingons and Federation are at war.

I suppose it hardly matters; the real answer is easy conflict and Shit Blowing Up.

 

[Charles Phipps]

You still haven't explained plausibly why the Klingons and Federation are at war.

I suppose it hardly matters; the real answer is easy conflict and Shit Blowing Up.

What is so complicated about the Federation encroaching about Klingon borders and T'Kuvma saying the Great Houses need to unite them and repulse them?

You know...the stuff in the pilot.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

It's pretty clearly spelled out that the Klingons think of the Federation as an Ideological threat in addition to the encroachment on Klingon borders.

Also, the klingons are only unified for now. Pretty sure it was Kol who said that once the war with the federation is over the houses will go back to fighting amongst themselves.

 

[Sir Stewart Wallace]

This isn't a complaint specific to Discovery, but in universe, why doesn't the Federation just wipe the Klingons off the map whenever they fight? You'd think with the combined power of hundreds of worlds they'd easily be the number one power in the quadrant by far.

 

[Nerys Myk]

This isn't a complaint specific to Discovery, but in universe, why doesn't the Federation just wipe the Klingons off the map whenever they fight? You'd think with the combined power of hundreds of worlds they'd easily be the number one power in the quadrant by far.

Good question. Maybe the Klingons have a population equal to the Federation and growing and that's why they must expand. If they all mature as fast as Alexander did, over population might be a problem.

 

[Jakks]

It has become my belief, that this 'war' is more or less the Four Years War and it's being inserted into canon with STD. It all fits, the time period, the people involved (Ep-4's list of captains 'Pike, Deker...' etc). The fact that CBS shut down Alec Peters 'FYW' fan film when STD was starting development. The fact we're already seven-months into the war by the fourth episode...ie moving things along. Yeah, the Four Years War has finally moved from RPG to canon....and I'm all for it.

 

[Sir Stewart Wallace]

Good question. Maybe the Klingons have a population equal to the Federation and growing and that's why they must expand. If they all mature as fast as Alexander did, over population might be a problem.

STOP GIVING THE KLINGONS FLINTSTONES VITAMINS!

 

[Longinus]

This isn't a complaint specific to Discovery, but in universe, why doesn't the Federation just wipe the Klingons off the map whenever they fight? You'd think with the combined power of hundreds of worlds they'd easily be the number one power in the quadrant by far.

Federation has never been depicted as more powerful. It is the Klingon Empire; it is big, they have plenty of conquered worlds. In the alternative timeline from 'Yesterday's Enterprise' where the two were locked in decades long war the Federation was losing.

 

[Sir Stewart Wallace]

Federation has never been depicted as more powerful. It is the Klingon Empire; it is big, they have plenty of conquered worlds. In the alternative timeline from 'Yesterday's Enterprise' where the two were locked in decades long war the Federation was losing.

I know, and that was pretty stupid too. Logically, the Federation should be the United States to the Klingons' Imperial Japan. Sure, Japan got a few licks in but they never really stood a chance.