Held captive as a sex slave...

[Deckerd]

Only if you think evil exists. Many of us think you just get bad people.

 

[Jayson]

Only if you think evil exists. Many of us think you just get bad people.

Well I don't beleive in evil in the way religious people do. I don't see it as something coming from Satan or demons or some magical force. I think some crimes though can be describe as evil due to how destructive they are. The fact that it's coming from a human being and not a demon actually makes it worst IMO. Because it means that no matter how horrible a human being is, he will still have some of the good attributes of being a human. Thngs like the ability to feel love or compassion. I don't know what is worst. That a person ignores those feelings and hurts inocent people or that those emotions can be used to do evil acts.

Jason

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Oh, well if you're hung up over a tax issue then I'm sure you'll care that it costs less to incarcerate a prisoner for life than it does to execute one. Unless we eliminate that pesky appeals process.

No matter how many times that's pointed out, those who are pro the death penalty always seem to forget that little fact.

So, why is the appeals process more expensive for a deathrow inmate than a lifer? Is there some assumption here that lawyers are not appealing the sentences of lifers? Or is this an example of cooking the books to make the death penalty look more expensive by only including appeals costs on the death penalty side of the equation but not on the life penalty side.

I am truly ignorant on the facts of the matter, if someone could enlighten me as to how this assertion was come by?

Why is the death penalty so expensive?

Legal costs: Almost all people facing the death penalty cannot afford their own attorney. The state must assign them two public defenders, and pay for the costs of the prosecution as well.

Pre-trial costs: Capital cases are far more complicated than non-capital cases. Experts will probably be needed on forensic evidence, mental health and the social history of the defendant.

Jury selection: Because of the death penalty question, jury selection in capital cases is much more time consuming and expensive.

Trial: Death penalty trials can last over four times longer, requiring juror and attorney compensation, in addition to court personnel and other related costs.

Incarceration: Most death rows involve solitary confinement in a special facility. These require more security and other accommodations as the prisoners are kept for 23 hours a day in their cells.

Appeals: To minimize mistakes, every inmate is entitled to a series of appeals. The costs are borne at taxpayers' expense. These appeals are essential because some inmates have come within hours of execution before evidence was uncovered proving their innocence.
____________________________________

This site has an extensive list of non- or bi-partisan studies from the federal, state, and local level showing why simply trying capital cases, even if the defendant is not ultimately given the death penalty, are extremely wasteful to taxpayers at every stage of the process. For a program that has no sign of serving as a deterrent to murder, it eats up massive amounts of law enforcement (and other) revenue that would be better invested in preventative measures with proven track records. More police on the street, jobs programs, and better funded education would all be far more successful at deterring crime than the death penalty will ever be.

It's a colossal and ineffective (from a deterrent standpoint) waste of time, manpower, and money that ultimately serves no point beyond being a tool of personal and societal vengeance. It causes other nations to frequently deny extradition of criminals out of fear of them being executed for crimes committed in the US unless we pledge not to pursue the death penalty. Though I don't have the numbers, from a ballpark estimate it has probably caused more criminals to go free or face much lighter sentences than life in other countries because of this than have ever been executed in the history of the US.

That's just a cost-benefit analysis without even getting into the moral issues behind capital punishment, which are numerous. Personally, I more concerned with the moral ramifications and quaint things like:

- What if government executes an innocent person?

- We keep trying to expand the death penalty into newer areas, especially at the state level, which thankfully is often kept in check by the SCOTUS. Executing the mentally handicapped (declared unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court in 2002). Executing teens tried as adults (declared unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court in 2005, sparing 72 death row inmates under 18 around the country). Executing child rapists (declared unconstituional by the US Supreme Court in 2008). What's next? I don't really see much to cheer for in not exceeding the Chinese or the Saudis in our bloodlust. Yay for low expectations.

- Is a program where blacks and the poor are far more likely to receive the death penalty not just because of the usual excuses like black/poor people commit more crimes, but rather because our justice system gives you a better defense if you can afford it really something we should be backing:

The average cost of defending a trial in a federal death case is $620,932, about 8 times that of a federal murder case in which the death penalty is not sought. A study found that those defendants whose representation was the least expensive, and thus who received the least amount of attorney and expert time, had an increased probability of receiving a death sentence. Defendants with less than $320,000 in terms of representation costs (the bottom 1/3 of federal capital trials) had a 44% chance of receiving a death sentence at trial. On the other hand, those defendants whose representation costs were higher than $320,000 (the remaining 2/3 of federal capital trials) had only a 19% chance of being sentenced to death. Thus, the study concluded that defendants with low representation costs were more than twice as likely to receive a death sentence. The complete report can be found here.

I like to use the economic argument to try and appeal to that curious segment of society that rail against any new taxes for actual productive purposes yet fully support one of the most bloated and useless tax-sucking series of programs in history, because... why? I don't know, because it's sure not a deterrent. If you actually gave a shit about preserving life you should be opposed to this. If you actually gave a shit about reducing taxes and government spending you should be opposed to this. If you actually gave a shit about being tough on crime and supporting law enforcement you should be opposed to this. It doesn't make a damn bit of sense, except to appeal to our baser instincts.

 

[Deckerd]

I'd vote for Locutus in any election.

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^
And when the time comes to be barbaric and uncivilized, what then? What if some enemy arises that can't be negotiated with? What if there comes some threat so great that we simply have to destroy it in short order, without much time for thought or reason?

Golly, you're right! Screw civilization! It will only slow us down when we need to defend ourselves!

I kind of look at it like there is two sides to every human.

The civilized side needs to be cultivated. The barbaric side needs to be weeded out.

I don't think it can.

Of course it can. We've been doing it slowly but surely for centuries, despite little setbacks (like this Thread).

Besides you would also be weeding out sex and passion and you can forget about any more great art.

Nonsense. Why in the world would you imagine that sex and passion and art have anything in common with a sick desire to torture and kill criminals?

 

[Jayson]

^^
And when the time comes to be barbaric and uncivilized, what then? What if some enemy arises that can't be negotiated with? What if there comes some threat so great that we simply have to destroy it in short order, without much time for thought or reason?

Golly, you're right! Screw civilization! It will only slow us down when we need to defend ourselves!

I don't think it can.

Of course it can. We've been doing it slowly but surely for centuries, despite little setbacks (like this Thread).

Besides you would also be weeding out sex and passion and you can forget about any more great art.

Nonsense. Why in the world would you imagine that sex and passion and art have anything in common with a sick desire to torture and kill criminals?

Because it all comes from our genetic makeup. You don't eat because you like to eat. You eat because your compelled to eat. Sex and passion and anger are all from our genetic makeup as well. Look at many artist are people who had deep personal flaws or anger issue's or who knows what. Creativity comes from pain and everything negative within us. Love is about caring for others but that is unnatural in most animals. We have it because we can look at another person and feel for them. There is something more to those emotions than raw emotion or instinct. You have to be self-aware to have those emotions which sperates them from our more animalisitc instincts.

Jason

 

[Itisnotlogical]

^^
And when the time comes to be barbaric and uncivilized, what then? What if some enemy arises that can't be negotiated with? What if there comes some threat so great that we simply have to destroy it in short order, without much time for thought or reason?

Golly, you're right! Screw civilization! It will only slow us down when we need to defend ourselves!

I don't think it can.

Of course it can. We've been doing it slowly but surely for centuries, despite little setbacks (like this Thread).

Besides you would also be weeding out sex and passion and you can forget about any more great art.

Nonsense. Why in the world would you imagine that sex and passion and art have anything in common with a sick desire to torture and kill criminals?

There's a time for civilization too. I'm not a warmongering scoundrel who sleeps with a gun, but I'm not going to give up my "barbarism" either. History has proven time and again that madmen have gotten into positions of power more than once, and more than once various factions beat them by putting a smart bomb through their window or similar means. And I do believe that some people like thieves merely require to sit in a cell for a month or three, and that people who torture, molest and kill innocent people require to be deterred. The rates for those crimes are still very high, so we must evidently be doing something wrong somewhere in the system.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Because it all comes from our genetic makeup. You don't eat because you like to eat. You eat because your compelled to eat.

We eat because we need to eat and because we like to eat. Ideally, what we eat to sustain us is also something we like. But we also eat stuff that is useless but tasty. What difference does it make?

Sex and passion and anger are all from our genetic makeup as well.

So are serenity and love. It's rather disturbing that you continue to equate sex and anger, especially given the topic of the Thread.

Look at many artist are people who had deep personal flaws or anger issue's or who knows what.

Okay. Now look at all the others who don't.

Creativity comes from pain and everything negative within us.

No, it doesn't. Creativity is creativity. How people express their creativity depends on any number of factors.

Love is about caring for others but that is unnatural in most animals.

No, it isn't. Aside from the fact that nothing unnatural can happen, caring for others is very present among animals, particularly mammals. There have been Threads right here at TrekBBS about animals that have shown caring and compassion for completely different species. And anybody who has ever had a Pet knows that animals can love.

We have it because we can look at another person and feel for them. There is something more to those emotions than raw emotion or instinct. You have to be self-aware to have those emotions which sperates them from our more animalisitc instincts.

Your first two sentences contradict each other. Your second sentence contradicts itself. This paragraph contradicts your entire premise.

There's a time for civilization too. I'm not a warmongering scoundrel who sleeps with a gun

Well, that's good to hear.

and that people who torture, molest and kill innocent people require to be deterred. The rates for those crimes are still very high, so we must evidently be doing something wrong somewhere in the system.

That's because there's no deterrent for mental illness. People who do these things are obviously suffering from some malfunction in their brain chemistry; i.e. they have a screw loose. Hating people for committing this sort of crime is like hating somebody for having a brain embolism. These people need to be separated from society so that they do no harm, and they need to be studied and treated so that a cure and a preventative can be found.

 

[Itisnotlogical]

and that people who torture, molest and kill innocent people require to be deterred. The rates for those crimes are still very high, so we must evidently be doing something wrong somewhere in the system.

That's because there's no deterrent for mental illness. People who do these things are obviously suffering from some malfunction in their brain chemistry; i.e. they have a screw loose. Hating people for committing this sort of crime is like hating somebody for having a brain embolism. These people need to be separated from society so that they do no harm, and they need to be studied and treated so that a cure and a preventative can be found.

Okay, you got me there. People who genuinely have a few holes in their brain do need to be seperated, and while I'm skeptical a cure can be found I'd really like such a thing to materialize with minimal cost and effort.

But, on the other hand, what if somebody does it simply because they're just plain evil, and their brain is otherwise in working order? I'd really like there to be a happy land with bright sunshine and blue skies and no evil and some really happy motivational guitar music playing in the background like the commercials, but unfortunately that world is for the moment not meant for us.

 

[RJDiogenes]

No sane person would do something like this. Just the fact that they did it is proof of mental illness. The trick is to learn the nature of the illness, and discover how to treat and prevent it.

 

[Itisnotlogical]

Well, at least we can agree to disagree. It's so refreshing to actually take part in a discussion, and not have it turn into...

You: you! I'm right and you're wrong, dumb!
Me: you and your stupid opinions!
Moderator: Shut the up or ima you until you die from it!

That's often what happens in YouTube comments for me

 

[Jayson]

Because it all comes from our genetic makeup. You don't eat because you like to eat. You eat because your compelled to eat.

We eat because we need to eat and because we like to eat. Ideally, what we eat to sustain us is also something we like. But we also eat stuff that is useless but tasty. What difference does it make?

Sex and passion and anger are all from our genetic makeup as well.

So are serenity and love. It's rather disturbing that you continue to equate sex and anger, especially given the topic of the Thread.

Okay. Now look at all the others who don't.

No, it doesn't. Creativity is creativity. How people express their creativity depends on any number of factors.

No, it isn't. Aside from the fact that nothing unnatural can happen, caring for others is very present among animals, particularly mammals. There have been Threads right here at TrekBBS about animals that have shown caring and compassion for completely different species. And anybody who has ever had a Pet knows that animals can love.

Your first two sentences contradict each other. Your second sentence contradicts itself. This paragraph contradicts your entire premise.

There's a time for civilization too. I'm not a warmongering scoundrel who sleeps with a gun

Well, that's good to hear.

and that people who torture, molest and kill innocent people require to be deterred. The rates for those crimes are still very high, so we must evidently be doing something wrong somewhere in the system.

That's because there's no deterrent for mental illness. People who do these things are obviously suffering from some malfunction in their brain chemistry; i.e. they have a screw loose. Hating people for committing this sort of crime is like hating somebody for having a brain embolism. These people need to be separated from society so that they do no harm, and they need to be studied and treated so that a cure and a preventative can be found.

What I mean is that some emotions are more intense to a point were it's almost a addiction. That is what I mean when I put the need for food,sex,anger and passion in the same category. Love and kindness is more of a passive emotion because it comes from are ability to look at situations and feel empathy towards someone. Empathy feels good like those other emotions but is it quite as powerful as some of our more negative or intense emotions? I'm not so sure. Look at how the need for sex has the ability to push people to places were they hurt people. I'm talking about everything from pedophiles to guys who cheat on their wives. People love kindness but if someone hasn't eaten in 3 days he might kill a man for his food. Love and Kindness and all these great things are almost like luxariies we can afford since we don't have to fight as hard for are survival as most other animals on the planet.

Jason

 

[RJDiogenes]

Well, at least we can agree to disagree. It's so refreshing to actually take part in a discussion, and not have it turn into...

You: you! I'm right and you're wrong, dumb!
Me: you and your stupid opinions!
Moderator: Shut the up or ima you until you die from it!

That's often what happens in YouTube comments for me

Yeah, there's a lot of that going around. IMDB is awful as well.

What I mean is that some emotions are more intense to a point were it's almost a addiction. That is what I mean when I put the need for food,sex,anger and passion in the same category.

I'm still not seeing how anger gets in there with food, sex and passion.

Love and kindness is more of a passive emotion because it comes from are ability to look at situations and feel empathy towards someone. Empathy feels good like those other emotions but is it quite as powerful as some of our more negative or intense emotions? I'm not so sure. Look at how the need for sex has the ability to push people to places were they hurt people. I'm talking about everything from pedophiles to guys who cheat on their wives. People love kindness but if someone hasn't eaten in 3 days he might kill a man for his food. Love and Kindness and all these great things are almost like luxariies we can afford since we don't have to fight as hard for are survival as most other animals on the planet.

It's not a luxury if you want civilization. Again, that's why we have laws; so we can make positive decisions while we have the capacity or on the behalf of others.