Held captive as a sex slave...

[Jayson]

I'm fairly sure his victim or the children would not want him tortured and killed. If they don't want it, why do you? On another related note: why is keeping her alive and a prisoner worse than merely killing her?

The victim and children are brainwashed. Your going let people with Stockholm's symdrome, dictate how we should judge this guy? Perhaps when there cured, if they are cured they could make that judgment but what would you say if they wanted the guy dead? Speaking of which I can't help but think killing him would be good in the long-run for their mental health. As long as he is alive, he can continue to have power over them. If Jacee and the kids are visting this guy in prison and wanting to stay connected to him then sometimes horrible has gone wrong in trying to help them recover from their abuse. By killing them you basically sever the connection, forever. I think their mental helath is more important than his life.

Further upthread you were arguing that you were taking the victim's side in this, and that if (as you assumed they would) the hypothetical victim in a brutal rape wanted revenge, it was not society's place to call halt. Now you've changed tune and revoked the victims' autonomy on the grounds that they're too damaged to know what's best for them. Thus it's your job to speak for them since you do know best. You're going to have to pick one. You can't invoke the victim on both sides of the argument.

I would never presume to speak for all survivors, or to assume I know what Jaycee Dugard is going through. However, generally speaking, a common aftermath of rape trauma is for a survivor to lose confidence in the humanity of those around him or her. It's not just 'why did he rape me?' it's also 'why did nobody help?' and 'why doesn't anyone else get that the entire world has fallen apart at the seams?'. For survivors, dealing with their rapist is only one part of the healing process. One also has to renegotiate dealing with the rest of the world - loved ones, and strangers, and people in authority.

I would argue that letting anger and vigilantism fuel our responses to rapists (that is, to the really heinous ones) isn't about helping their victims. There are probably survivors for whom the death of their attacker would help bring a little peace, I'm sure. But (again, speaking generally) what survivors need is support. They need stability, and they need to be believed, and to believe that the system is on their side. What help is it to re-enforce the message that violence is the true answer and that this time they're lucky enough to have it on their side instead of used against them?

Nobody is saying revenge is a cure to ending a victim's suffering. What I am saying is that it's not imoral if the person deserves it. There many different angles to the question. There is the pratical angle, the moral angle and then there is the law which always has to balance both of those two things, together.

Oviously these girls need more help than just someone putting a bullet in the scumbag's head. Morally there is no problem with it, IMO. From a pratical perspective I am unsure. You seem to think it reinforces that violence is the answer. I think it would help sever any connection or bond they have with the guy. They might feel bad that he is dead and even grieve but time heals those wounds. Compare that to a trial and the knowledge that he is still in prison were they might feel tempted to re-connect with him then I am not sure which way is the better way to go to help them.

The truth is I don't know how to help them and neither do you. Nobody does, except the experts and her family and Jaycee herself. All I know is if a pedophile gets killed I don't feel like a injustice has happened. I feel like a evil person got what he deserved and I pray that it might do some good or at least no harm.

As for the question of Jaycee not wanting revenge and me saying it's wrong to let her make those judgments while suffering Stockholm's syndrome I oviously think people need to be of sound mind before they take revenge, if they ever take revenge. You need perspective to do something like that. Easier said than done, which is why I still say vigilinate justice can never be legal but I am judging the crime on what happens to the victim and what they did to earn this revenge more than i am the state of the mind of the avenger. Even a crazy loon can kill the right person, once in awhile.

Asshole gets his car keyed=justice

rapist gets castrated=justice

Guy gets killed because he honked his horn at someone=injustice.

Each revenge can be judged on their own sperate merrits, if your looking at it from a ethic's point-of-view. The law works differently I know and it has it's own standards and I am find with that. It's not justice but it's better than nothing because if you let anachory run loose, you will end up having more cases of unjust revenge than justifed revenge IMO. Everyone thinks there Batman but most people end up being Kirk Douglass in "Falling Down." If you let this become the dominate form of maintaining order.

Jason

 

[Itisnotlogical]

^^
Look at it this way: what would you pick- prisoner and sex slave for years and years with no end in sight, or death?

So you hold with the 'a fate worse than death' theory for this kind of crime? I bet you're a man.

Yes, I do happen to be a man, thank you very much. And, granted that I'm of the male persuasion and have gone relatively unharmed by all the crime in the world around me I think I judged the situation as best I could. Personally I'd pick a job with the Department of Divine Punishment over years of sexual abuse any day.

 

[Jayson]

Yes but it's usually men who say that a woman's life should naturally be not worth living after such an ordeal.

I think people say that rape is something you never truly recover from, kind of like how a alcholic will be one to the day the die, but I don't think I have ever heard anyone say a women's life is worthless after rape. It just means they will have to go through life with some trama, but hell if everyone's life was worthless because of the trama there dealing with, nobodies life would mean anything. We all have issue's, some worst than others, but everyone has to deal with it in their own way and find away to live with it. Isn't that kind of what, being human is all about? Dealing with obstacles and trying the avoid them while trying to get a little happiness while dealing with all the shit that is being tossed your way? Granted I have failed at life so maybe I got it all wrong.

Jason

 

[Deckerd]

I'm just trying to tease out why keeping her alive is somehow worse than finding her 6 feet under, which is the vibe I'm getting here.

 

[Jayson]

I'm just trying to tease out why keeping her alive is somehow worse than finding her 6 feet under, which is the vibe I'm getting here.

Well I agree that finding her alive is much better than finding her dead, under any circumstances. Even if the person has a trama that is so bad they killed themselves, it would still be a death of their choosing instead of that of the sick pervert that abused them.

Jason

 

[sidious618]

What's the point in keeping him alive so he can live off the tax-payers' tit for the rest of his life?

Oh, well if you're hung up over a tax issue then I'm sure you'll care that it costs less to incarcerate a prisoner for life than it does to execute one. Unless we eliminate that pesky appeals process.

No matter how many times that's pointed out, those who are pro the death penalty always seem to forget that little fact.

 

[Cakes488]

Some people are evil scum and deserve to die.

This guy? One of those people.

I've never understood this. Why does he deserve to die? He clearly can't be kept in society so let's put him in prison. But why do we need to kill him? I just don't see the point.

What's the point in keeping him alive so he can live off the tax-payers' tit for the rest of his life?

He's unredeemable and his comitted a heinous, disgusting, inhuman crime. He's evil scum. Kill him.

When can we get some hard labor camps going on in this country? Is that cruel and unusual? If yes than surely there is a way to make it less cruel and more usual. Maybe we can give them some really comfy shoes to labor in -- that takes care of the cruel part and come to think of it there is nothing unusual about laboring in a field all day.

 

[sojourner]

What's the point in keeping him alive so he can live off the tax-payers' tit for the rest of his life?

Oh, well if you're hung up over a tax issue then I'm sure you'll care that it costs less to incarcerate a prisoner for life than it does to execute one. Unless we eliminate that pesky appeals process.

No matter how many times that's pointed out, those who are pro the death penalty always seem to forget that little fact.

So, why is the appeals process more expensive for a deathrow inmate than a lifer? Is there some assumption here that lawyers are not appealing the sentences of lifers? Or is this an example of cooking the books to make the death penalty look more expensive by only including appeals costs on the death penalty side of the equation but not on the life penalty side.

I am truly ignorant on the facts of the matter, if someone could enlighten me as to how this assertion was come by?

 

[Deckerd]

I think because if someone is stuck behind bars it isn't quite as final as being killed. Therefore every avenue is exhausted before someone is killed. This can take 20 years. That's why it's so expensive. If you want to cut down on the expense you would have to dispense with appeals. A Scot was recently released from death row having spent about 20 years there. Would you rather that man had been killed even although it turned out he wasn't guilty?

 

[sojourner]

I was just interested in the cost numbers compared between a deathrow inmate as opposed to a lifer. I did not mean to imply that neither the deathrow inmate nor the lifer be denied due process.

 

[paudemge]

I was just interested in the cost numbers compared between a deathrow inmate as opposed to a lifer. I did not mean to imply that neither the deathrow inmate nor the lifer be denied due process.

I think inmates on death row get automatic appeals.

I am for the death penalty but only for murder, not rape or kidnapping, I don't want the rapist to think I might just as well kill the woman if i'm going to get the death penalty anyway and get rid of a witness.

 

[Jayson]

Asshole gets his car keyed=justice

rapist gets castrated=justice

Neither of those are justice.

Sounds fair to me. Granted the asshole thing can be somewhat open to debate but if someone is a jerk a little property damage seems about fair. There are different levels of being a asshole. There is the rude asshole, the asshole that thinks he/she is better than everyone, the asshole that thinks it's okay to throw glass out there window. I am so sick of seeing broken glass on the road! That can cause flat tires and if I every see a person who does that I will be very tempted to follow them and slash there tires.

Jason

 

[RJDiogenes]

Have you been listening to talk radio or something? Violence is not the answer to everything. In fact, it's very seldom the answer to anything.

 

[Jayson]

Have you been listening to talk radio or something? Violence is not the answer to everything. In fact, it's very seldom the answer to anything.

I asume your not talking about violence in regards to war and self-defense which is a different kind of violence from the kind that rises up in this issue.

DO I think revenge solves problems. For the most part I don't think it solves problems, so much as it fills a need for justice. Love is a more powerful tool in helping people. Revenge though I think speaks to a human need to settle a score, to give you some semblance of power back from someone who has taken it from you. It's why humans invented the concept of hell. People need to know that people will answer to crimes that have happened to them, but people also know that a rapist going to prison isn't equal to what they have endured.

I kind of look at it like there is two sides to every human. There is our senient side, that has compassion and love and all the noble things we admire. Then their is our more basic animal insstincts which has are more savage desire's. Sex,anger,the need to eat all comes from the animal inside us.

People basically have a need to feed both halves of who they are. The desire for revenge is no different from any of are other desires. The only reason why we can't fully endorse it is because it's something that you usually can't control in a orderly society. Revenge can get out of control, but it's not evil. It is part of who we are. If you can control it, then you can say you have gotten the closest form of justice that can happen to a human being. Otherwise your just a wild animal lashing out in anger at anything that gets into your way.

Jason

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

A Scot was recently released from death row having spent about 20 years there. Would you rather that man had been killed even although it turned out he wasn't guilty?

Welcome to Texas. Where we kill anyone and everyone.

 

[Gepard]

Have you been listening to talk radio or something? Violence is not the answer to everything. In fact, it's very seldom the answer to anything.

It sure is satisfying, though.

Speaking of which, I've got some more zombies to kill.

Sex,anger,the need to eat all comes from the animal inside us.

I'm so glad you put sex and eating on par with RAAAAAGE.

 

[Jayson]

Have you been listening to talk radio or something? Violence is not the answer to everything. In fact, it's very seldom the answer to anything.

It sure is satisfying, though.

Speaking of which, I've got some more zombies to kill.

Sex,anger,the need to eat all comes from the animal inside us.

I'm so glad you put sex and eating on par with RAAAAAGE.

They are pretty much the same. It's all instincts and raw emotion that give these things such power. Sex though has crossover appeal because, not only is it a natural instinct but also a means of expressing love.

Jason

 

[RJDiogenes]

I kind of look at it like there is two sides to every human.

The civilized side needs to be cultivated. The barbaric side needs to be weeded out.

 

[Itisnotlogical]

^^
And when the time comes to be barbaric and uncivilized, what then? What if some enemy arises that can't be negotiated with? What if there comes some threat so great that we simply have to destroy it in short order, without much time for thought or reason?

 

[Jayson]

I kind of look at it like there is two sides to every human.

The civilized side needs to be cultivated. The barbaric side needs to be weeded out.

I don't think it can. Besides you would also be weeding out sex and passion and you can forget about any more great art. Besides I don't know if allowing a pedophile to live even counts as being civilized. It's one step bellow of letting them off the hook. I especially don't like it because like I said above that I feel like they can still have power over their victims, even behind bars. The idea that they might get out someday and come back or in the case of Jaycee I think she might never loose her feelings for this guy if he is still in the world. To me that is sick because those feelings were manipulated through evil.

Jason