HD experts, help an idiot!

[Eddie Roth]

So I have a technical question concerning HDTV (or HD-DVD or Bluray or whatever).... Am I correct in assuming that the reason TOS can be remastered and rereleased in HD is because it was filmed on actual 35mm film stock which is just sort of "scanned" in a higher definition than what was done for DVD?

And if so, does that mean that TNG will never be released in HD because all of the source material was transferred to video first for post-production? Because I'd just love to see a HD version of TNG as I'm sure many people would. Can we hold our breaths for that?

 

[Jon1701]

I dont think we'll see it.

As I understand it, TNG would have to be completely re-edited to make HD versions as they (and Ds9 and VOY) were edited on video. Thats assuming they kept all the original film stock. Also, every special effect would have to be redone. Every phaser blast, every transporter effect. It would take much, much longer than TOS. Where they often only had 10-15 fx shots per show, TNG had a lot more.

It worked out cheaper at the time, but in hindsight it may age the show even further

 

[Eddie Roth]

As I suspected. Too bad really.

 

[Outpost4]

While it would take a lot more to redo TNG, I think it is the perfect candidate to get the upgrade. It would still be much cheaper to update TNG from scratch than shoot a whole new series.

In 5 years, when HDTV becomes the standard instead of the exception, I'd look for Paramount to make the upgrade. (This assumes ST:11 will be successful and a continued interest in Trek.) From what ratings we've seen, TOS-R has achieved about the same ratings as ENT at a fraction of the cost to the studio. That kind of profit gets studio heads thinking. A ground-up, 16:9, full HDTV presentation of TNG could make CBS some serious money.

 

[AviTrek]

TOS-R in syndication has gotten the same ratings as ENT in syndication. The ENT first run episodes still had higher ratings. Either way CBS only gets the money that stations pay for the right to broadcast the syndicated episodes. No station will pay as much for a syndicated show as for a new show. A new show will clearly have more gross revenue, when it comes to net revenue thats a different question and depends on the cost of redoing TNG vs. producing a new show. Plus you have to factor in continuing the brand. Would ST 11 or TOS-R even be happening if TNG had never happened and there has been no ST since TUC?

 

[Tomalak]

Outpost4 said:
That kind of profit gets studio heads thinking. A ground-up, 16:9, full HDTV presentation of TNG could make CBS some serious money.

I'm not so sure. These have been endlessly repeated.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

All the original film elements for TNG (as well as DS9 and Voyager) have been kept in the Paramount vaults.

So they could do a HD version of all three of those shows if desired. They would indeed have to redo all the effects shots, though.

As far as I know, Enterprise is the only Trek show in existence that is already airable in HD with no reworking necessary.

 

[Trekker4747]

That's kind of the point, Baba, they'd pretty much have to remake every episode from scratch. Re-edit it, re make and insert SFX and then they'd have the episodes. And that's not counting any likely clean-up that'd have to be done to 20 year old TV episodes as the film has degraded some.

Is it impossible? No.

Is it going to happen? Not unless Paramount is willing to invest a lot of time and money into the project.

 

[Outpost4]

Tomalak said:

Outpost4 said:
That kind of profit gets studio heads thinking. A ground-up, 16:9, full HDTV presentation of TNG could make CBS some serious money.

I'm not so sure. These have been endlessly repeated.

And TOS has not? This fact didn't stop CBS from updating it.

A remaking of TNG for a new era of video could make Paramount even more money. I still think the investment would be nominal considering the HDTV remasters could be repeated endless for another 20 years.

 

[Orac]

Weren't just the first 2 seasons of TNG edited on video tape, on the DVD's there is an obvious improvement in image quality from S3 onwards or did they just switch to beta?

 

[LitmusDragon]

I think it's inevitable that this will happen eventually, probably within the next 5 years. There is money to be made here.

The question is-- will the new FX do the show justice? They've done a good job on TOS remastered from what I've seen so I'm not too worried about it. Still, it is a concern. Some of the FX shots in TNG are rather ... iconic.

 

[Tomalak]

Outpost4 said:

Tomalak said:

Outpost4 said:
That kind of profit gets studio heads thinking. A ground-up, 16:9, full HDTV presentation of TNG could make CBS some serious money.

I'm not so sure. These have been endlessly repeated.

And TOS has not? This fact didn't stop CBS from updating it.

I did think of that, but since TOS "only" required a clean up and new effects, and is a mere three seasons, it was always going to be the simplest show to do.

 

[AviTrek]

Outpost4 said:
A ground-up, 16:9, full HDTV presentation of TNG could make CBS some serious money.

Forgot to catch that point before. The show was still shot on 4x3 film. To go 16x9 you would have to crop the top and bottom of every shot. It could be done but you would be losing material originally intended to be shown, as opposed to movies where going widescreen returns material originally intended to be shown. I believe the plans for TOS-R are to keep the original aspect ratio and just have black bars on the side of a 16x9 monitor.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Outpost4 said:
And TOS has not? This fact didn't stop CBS from updating it.

TOS was at greatest risk of vanishing from the "want lists" of syndicators, as they anticipate the arrival of HD TV.

Also, the remastering of SPFX has gotten more people talking about TOS, debating its merits and inadequacies, and we now have formerly-resistant TNG-era ST fans sampling TOS for the first time. Word of mouth will help bring about curiosity for TOS as we build towards the release of the JJ Abrams' TOS-era film. It's all part of ongoing product recognition.

There's no rush for remastering TNG... yet.

 

[Outpost4]

AviTrek said:

Outpost4 said:
A ground-up, 16:9, full HDTV presentation of TNG could make CBS some serious money.

Forgot to catch that point before. The show was still shot on 4x3 film. To go 16x9 you would have to crop the top and bottom of every shot. It could be done but you would be losing material originally intended to be shown, as opposed to movies where going widescreen returns material originally intended to be shown. I believe the plans for TOS-R are to keep the original aspect ratio and just have black bars on the side of a 16x9 monitor.

Have you seen the remasters of Hogan's Heroes, Knight Rider, The Equalizer or Charlie's Angels in HDTV? They've all been cropped for 16:9. Only occasionally do you miss the top or the bottom; the mask is floating to get the most information possible.

The difference between remastering TNG and TOS is in the amount of work it would take. With some episodes of TOS-R, all they are changing is a couple of minutes of shots. Even in the heavy effects laden episodes, we're still talking less than seven minutes worth of new footage. Remastering TNG will be a much bigger enterprise, no pun intended. Every second of the episode will be new. I can guarantee you if they go to the expense to do a new transfer off the original film stock and then create all new effects in HD, they will crop the picture to 16:9 so that TNG is widescreen. TVs will be widescreen for the foreseeable future and TNG-R would be created to look proper on them. For good or for bad.

 

[Trekker4747]

Have you seen the remasters of Hogan's Heroes, Knight Rider, The Equalizer or Charlie's Angels in HDTV? They've all been cropped for 16:9. Only occasionally do you miss the top or the bottom; the mask is floating to get the most information possible.

But, see, that's not really the point.

A) You could argue cropping like that is "changing the director's artistic intent" for the scene/show.

And B) Widescreen isn't about "filling the screen" videophilles prefer OAR (Original Aspect Ratio) TNG wasn't filmed in widescreen so it shouldn't be presented in widescreen.

 

[Michael]

A) You could argue cropping like that is "changing the director's artistic intent" for the scene/show.

And B) Widescreen isn't about "filling the screen" videophilles prefer OAR (Original Aspect Ratio) TNG wasn't filmed in widescreen so it shouldn't be presented in widescreen.

That's sums up perfectly what I think about all this 16:9 cropping. Wouldn't that be the same as cutting off pieces of a Picasso -- just because a new generation LIKES to see a picture in x way?

And what actually is the point in redoing something that is an established work of art (and after so many years TNG certainly is one)? I don't really get it ...

 

[Outpost4]

The purpose is to resell it.

Unfortunately, most TNG watchers doesn't look on it as a piece of art but as entertainment.

Paramount's options are to either crop it or have the Average Joe spread the picture wide and make Picard look as fat as Kirk. People want to fill the screen one way or another. I sold widescreen TVs for too many years, preaching the advantages of window boxing (with the bars on the sides) only to see EVERY SINGLE ONE of my customers, even those ones with 10' screens, either zoom in on the picture or opt for spreading the picture wide and fat. Every single one wanted the picture to fit their new wide screen. It was disheartening but a great wake-up call.

Don't believe me? Take your own poll. Have you ever gone into a bar or restaurant with widescreen TVs and NOT seen a 4:3 picture that is either spread wide or zoomed in and cropped? I haven't.

I'm just telling you that yours (or my) purist Trekkie objections be damned, TNG-R would be in widescreen because that what people want to watch.

 

[Michael]

What I don't get is why the supposed customer of such remastered DVDs -- the people who LOVE TNG (and only know it in the 4:3 format) -- would WANT to see their beloved series (if only entertainment, art or both) cropped as it wasn't meant to be.

What kind of mentality is that?

 

[Outpost4]

Trekker4747 said:

Have you seen the remasters of Hogan's Heroes, Knight Rider, The Equalizer or Charlie's Angels in HDTV? They've all been cropped for 16:9. Only occasionally do you miss the top or the bottom; the mask is floating to get the most information possible.

But, see, that's not really the point.

Yes it is. All I am saying is if you watch one of these old shows in 16:9, it works. We're not talking about the director's intention or videophile purist demands. I am saying you can crop a 4:3 show down to 16:9 and it doesn't seem cropped for the vast majority of the scenes.

I have tried hard not to like these remasters on HDNet and, sorry, I can't. They, in general, look good to me. Not perfect but quite acceptable.