Has this happened to any of you...?

[Ubik]

So, my wife is an extremely intelligent and perceptive science fiction fan. She loves the new Doctor Who. I got her hooked on Star Trek: TNG and DS9, and she loves movies like Children of Men, Moon, and District 9. After we watch some program or movie of science fiction, we can generally have a thorough and interesting discussion about it. We agree on most things regarding what makes good sci-fi. We both loved The Fountain and hate Transformers. We hate Star Trek: Voyager. We love Firefly.

And so, after all this, I finally decided to try to get her hooked on the classic Doctor Who. Because she likes things done in an orderly fashion (as I do), she wanted me to start at the beginning, and skip the bad episodes. So, that's what I did.

We started with Hartnell, and skipping most of Jon Pertwee, we've just finished Castrovalva. She's now seen most of the great classic Doctor Who episodes, and has missed all the awful ones.

And you know what?

She just doesn't dig it. She quite liked the Hartnell stuff, especially The Aztecs, but over the episodes, she started showing less and less enthusiasm for it. And I showed her only the supposedly great stuff, mind you - in Troughton, both Tomb of the Cybermen (she hated it) and War Games (she quite liked it.)

Then, after a couple of episodes of Pertwee (although she very much liked Spearhead from Space), she announced that Pertwee was a boring Doctor, something I agree with, and she wanted me to skip right to Tom Baker, which we did.

And by the time she got to Davison, she was entirely bored with the whole show. She watched Genesis of the Daleks, Pyramids of Mars, Robots of Death, Talons of Weng-Shiang - nothing. Bored through all of them. The only one from the Hinchcliffe years she liked was Planet of Fear. The others, she said were slow-moving, cheesy, badly scripted, badly-acted, vague, silly, and with lots of useless scenes. I then showed her City of Death - stupid, she called it. Although she liked John Cleese's cameo. Since she thought that episode was stupid, I skipped the rest of the Tom Baker comedy years, including Key to Time.

Then, I said, okay, fine, you like real science fiction, I bet you'll like season 18.

Full Circle - she said it was "okay," but, again, badly acted.
Warrior's Gate - totally cheesy, B-movie sci-fi, didn't even watch the 2nd two parts.
Logopolis - she loved the first part or 2, but as soon as the Master became a bigger part, it lost her.
Castrovalva - stupid. Might be entertaining for 10 year-olds.

I have been shocked by her response. She is absolutely bang-on in most of her responses to sci-fi, and her reasons for liking or disliking certain examples of it. And she always has specific reasons why she thinks most of these classic Doctor Who episodes are simply not good, wouldn't survive in today's television landscape, and she frankly has no idea how it lasted so long.

Here's what I'm thinking: what if she's right? Could it be that I am simply hooked on the old show because I grew up with it? And that I'm too biased to objectively see how simplistic and silly and boring the whole thing is? Doctor Who fans always go on about how, beneath the bad special effects and acting there are great ideas, but you know what? In rewatching the show, we couldn't find very many! Where are the so-called "great ideas" in Pyramids of Mars or Talons of Weng-Shiang? Where are the great ideas in the Master episodes? She's right - it's all cackling mustache-twirling comic book evil people with no motivation, and it's a variety of silly ways to defeat them - that's the show, she says, for the most part, a low-brow comic book good vs. evil kid's show, with not much depth or intelligent social commentary, or anything. Just a lot of running around in circles to defeat bad guys who aren't developed in even the most basic way. And having rewatched these episodes, I fear that she's right! Don't get me wrong - I still loved them, and were entertained by them, even as she sat there rolling her eyes. But my suspicion, again, is that she's actually right....

Sigh. Anyway, she still wants to finish the series, at some point, but she's taking a break from it.

Has this happened to any of you? Where you've been simply incapable of getting an intelligent sci-fi fan to like the old Doctor Who?

 

[Canadave]

Well speaking personally, as someone who considers himself a reasonably intelligent SF fan, I can't get into old-Who. I love the new series, and consider it to be much-watch television, but the old one does just tend to come across as slow and dull to me. Not universally, by any means, I can certainly watch and enjoy quite a bit of it, but as a whole I don't really feel compelled to watch it. Frankly, I'm a bit baffled by it, myself (I can sit through the slowest, talkiest episodes of TNG) by classic Who just doesn't do it for me, either.

 

[Count Zero]

Well, I watched my first episode of Doctor Who in 2008, starting with the new show. After rushing through the whole series then in existence in one month and then catching up with the weekly broadcasts, I decided to start watching the old show in the 'gap year' where we'd only get a few specials.

So, I'm working my way through it in the order of broadcast, which was incredibly slow at times due to the many missing episodes. I skipped over some of the incomplete serials but otherwise I stayed true to my plan and I'm now in season 9. I can't speak for the later years but I really enjoyed the black and white era, especially the Verity Lambert era. At times, the pacing was very slow and at times, the stories were bad, and what's worse, dull (the end of the Hartnell era is pretty dull) but every series has its weak spots.
I can't believe you skipped the Pertwee era, the pacing is breathtaking compared even to the last Troughton serials and it has plenty of social commentary. The dialogues are great and the performances of Pertwee, Delgado and Courtney are outstanding.
It's possible, though, that you have to bring a certain mindset with you to enjoy the old show. It's basically very classic sci-fi and the science is abhorrent. The monster costumes are also kind of cheesy but I find it adds to the charm. I guess, you have to let go a little, otherwise you won't enjoy it.
The few people I know who are Who fans also got into it watching the new series first and then checking out the old one. The extent to which they have done that varies but their reports back don't mirror your experience with your wife.

ETA: Just wanted to add that I've found it more fulfilling to watch the series in order than I probably would have felt if I had skipped around. But that could be just me.

 

[Captain Dago]

Here's what I'm thinking: what if she's right? Could it be that I am simply hooked on the old show because I grew up with it? And that I'm too biased to objectively see how simplistic and silly and boring the whole thing is?

She is right; it is because you grew up with it; you are biased.

But that's ok, because so are a lot of the rest of us.

 

[Sci]

Doctor Who fans always go on about how, beneath the bad special effects and acting there are great ideas, but you know what? In rewatching the show, we couldn't find very many! Where are the so-called "great ideas" in Pyramids of Mars or Talons of Weng-Shiang? Where are the great ideas in the Master episodes? She's right - it's all cackling mustache-twirling comic book evil people with no motivation, and it's a variety of silly ways to defeat them - that's the show, she says, for the most part, a low-brow comic book good vs. evil kid's show, with not much depth or intelligent social commentary, or anything. Just a lot of running around in circles to defeat bad guys who aren't developed in even the most basic way. And having rewatched these episodes, I fear that she's right! Don't get me wrong - I still loved them, and were entertained by them, even as she sat there rolling her eyes. But my suspicion, again, is that she's actually right....

Your wife's reaction to DW TOS is exactly mine. Some good stuff here and there caught among a lot of bad and mediocre and simplistic crap.

 

[captcalhoun]

some people just have no taste.

 

[WillsBabe]

Has this happened to any of you? Where you've been simply incapable of getting an intelligent sci-fi fan to like the old Doctor Who?

No but my husband doesn't like Hustle, which infuriates me greatly.... wait, I guess that's just not relevant is it?

 

[Starkers]

Not everyone likes everything. That's just the way of it.

I like the classic show, but I did sort of grow up with it, and with being a big Blakes 7 fan I've rewatched those episodes a lot more than Who and I can see past the effects and the slow pace doesn't bother me too much, in fact in many ways I really like it. I like fast paced modern stuff but sometimes I think we've gone too far and suddenly everything needs to be quick edits, loud music and flashy effects or people turn off. That's a shame. I also rail against the notion that the old show was simplistic, in many ways it was more grown up than the current series, it certainly dealt with adult themes more often. Sometimes I think some people equate adult drama with kissing

So what if nostalgia means you like something? That's as perfectly valid a reason for loving something as anything else, and I find it amusing to think that one day today's kids might be arguing with some newbie on a forum in 30 years time who claims nuWho is so boring; I mean who has 42 minutes free to watch an episode, and some of those scenes go on longer than a minute, can you imagine! And the effects...I'm sorry but I can't watch anything that's not in 3D!

 

[Cutter John]

Well what can you do? Some people just can't bridge the generation gap.

I started out with Baker/Davison and it still took me awhile to get into the older black and whites.

 

[Mr Light]

I've been going back and watching Old Who recently (which I loved as a kid) and it is soooooooooo long and boring. It really is just a different time and way of doing things. So much filler, so much running around, so much getting captured... I still have nostalgic love for Old Who but it's definitely something I can't sit down and watch without doing anything else.

 

[Count Zero]

I think you shouldn't watch more than two episodes of the old show at once. They were made to be seen once a week and that way the filler episodes and the recaps didn't appear dull or slow.
Of the Pertwee era episodes I can watch more but for the black-and-white stuff that's definetely true for me.

 

[TtotheC]

In part I think it does matter if you grew up with it, because you've then got your rose tinted glasses on and you're going to be used to the slower pacing and giggle worth SFX. The new Dr Who also reflects a society which is both faster paced and more emotional. I mean we have Tom Barker death scene lasting only a fraction of the melodrama of David Tennant's departure. Plus SFX has come a long way in the years since, mostly thanks to CGI.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

I started with Tom Baker on PBS in the 80s, and moved forward (and backwards) from there, finally catchign up with the first two Doctors when YTV started showing the whole catalogue in the early 90s.

My wife though is from Quebec and has never had much luck with quirky TV or movies where everyone's speaking in thick British accents. Slightly better luck with quirky TV or movies dubbed into French, so I may try to find the French dubbed version and try the modern series with her sometime... :P

Mark

 

[DWF]

I've been going back and watching Old Who recently (which I loved as a kid) and it is soooooooooo long and boring. It really is just a different time and way of doing things. So much filler, so much running around, so much getting captured... I still have nostalgic love for Old Who but it's definitely something I can't sit down and watch without doing anything else.

I can't understand a complaint about filler on the old series since story arcs on shows nowadays last much longer than the serials did on the old show.

 

[Mr Light]

There's long serialized stories, there's standalones... and then there's a serial where entire episodes revolve around going from one place to another then back to the other place again without any real progression of story or character

 

[captcalhoun]

i may have grown up with classic Who, but i barely remember anything other than the 7th Doctor since i was so young, but i've gone back and watched classic Who (and now own several on DVD) and i don't have a problem with it. sure, a few i've watched have been crappy (Sontaran Experiment, Ghost Light and Survival, I'm looking at you), but the majority i've watched, i've loved: Tomb of the Cybermen, The Invasion, The War Games, Spearhead from Space, Terror of the Autons, Planet of the Daleks, Day of the Daleks, Frontier in Space, The Silurians, Inferno, the Sea Devils, Three Doctors, City of Death, Genesis and Destiny of the Daleks, Battlefield, Rememberance of th Daleks, Invasion of the Dinosaurs... all great stuff.

 

[DWF]

There's long serialized stories, there's standalones... and then there's a serial where entire episodes revolve around going from one place to another then back to the other place again without any real progression of story or character

I'll take a serial from the old Dr. Who series anyday over a storyarc on shows like Farscape, Heroes or Lost, which is the very definition of filler most of the time. Also seeing how Dr. Who was aimed at children with short attention spans who didn't lose interest in the stories the complaint about filler no water at all.

 

[Canadave]

I've been going back and watching Old Who recently (which I loved as a kid) and it is soooooooooo long and boring. It really is just a different time and way of doing things. So much filler, so much running around, so much getting captured... I still have nostalgic love for Old Who but it's definitely something I can't sit down and watch without doing anything else.

I can't understand a complaint about filler on the old series since story arcs on shows nowadays last much longer than the serials did on the old show.

There's telling a story slowly over the course of a season, and then there's padding. Old Who tended to have a lot of the latter, with lots of running about from place to place and the like which had very little to do with the actual story. And I honestly just find it dull.

I mean, there are occasional serials that I enjoy, like "Spearhead from Space" and "City of Death," but I can't enjoy a mediocre or poor episode of Old Who the same way I can enjoy a mediocre or poor episode of nuWho.

 

[Shatnertage]

I had kind of the same experience. I've been watching Dr. Who since the early 1980s--originally saw mostly T. Baker/Pertwee, and in the past few years have been rediscovering it thanks to Netflix. My wife's reaction to the new series is generally similar to mine (likes the last season more than the previous ones), but she just doesn't like the original series.

A lot of it is the pacing. The silly FX are another part. Unless you have a nostalgic connection to them, as some of us do, it's really a lot of crap.

We tried watching some of the later stuff, and after episode 2 of "The Twin Dilemma" I couldn't take any more. At that stage, the show just seems poorly produced. This one sequence in "Delta and the Bannermen" wasn't even correctly white-balanced. That's just technical ineptness that would get you bounced off a job on the local news, let alone making a nationally-watched program.

Even though she generally dreads the glacially slow B&Ws, she actually liked "The War Games" better than "Delta."

So, yeah, I think a lot of it is nostalgic coloring our perception. If my first memories of the show were Doctors 6 & 7, I'd probably be a lot more tolerant of that era's flaws.

 

[Whofan]

This thread is in bad taste considering Nicholas Courtney's death.