Harry Potter Year 4½: The Missing Chapter

[Gaith]

Fair enough. I'm amused, though, at how the best defenses for Rowling's plot are the ones that most make the MoM totalitarian.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

^ Your comments represent a threat to the State and, therefore, are subject to approval from the MoR (Ministry of Rowling). The Censors will be contacting you shortly.

 

[Sci]

Fair enough. I'm amused, though, at how the best defenses for Rowling's plot are the ones that most make the MoM totalitarian.

Well, yeah! The series wasn't supposed to make you think the Ministry of Magic was some sort of enlightened democracy. Rowling herself has even said, in response to a question about whether or not there were specific allegories about Nazism when the Death Eaters took over the Ministry, "It wasn't really exclusively that. I think you can see in the Ministry even before it's taken over, there are parallels to regimes we all know and love." Part of the point of the series, from the get-go, was that the Ministry was not an institution concerned with human rights.

You seem to have been operating from the assumption that the Ministry was meant to be seen by the audience as being the "good guys" (i.e., that they practiced democracy and protected human rights). Rowling's point was not that. The Ministry was always meant to be seen as a corrupt and autocratic institution that threatened liberty, too.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

^ That may be true, but like so many of the "finer points" of Rowling's books, it requires a clarification from her after the fact (as in, it's not actually in the books themselves). I enjoy the books, but Rowling certainly doesn't do herself any favors when she tries to clarify the story after the fact. She shoulda done so in the books themselves. Given how bloated books 4-7 were, there's no reason why all these points she feels compelled to clarify after publication couldn't have been included in the actual books.

 

[Gaith]

... And instead of butting heads against the system in hopes, however vain, of saving lives, Harry and Dumby dither away a whole summer.

But they value "love", so it's all good, right?

 

[Greylock Crescent]

... And instead of butting heads against the system in hopes, however vain, of saving lives, Harry and Dumby dither away a whole summer.

But they value "love", so it's all good, right?

"It won't matter where you go
It won't matter what you do
'Cause something's always after you
It's love, love, love, love"
​

- TOS BSG Disco Song

 

[Sci]

^ That may be true, but like so many of the "finer points" of Rowling's books, it requires a clarification from her after the fact (as in, it's not actually in the books themselves).

Of course it's in the books themselves! The first time the Ministry of Magic appears, they're threatening to send Hagrid off to be tortured by the Dementors on the basis of hearsay evidence! Every other time they appear, they appear in an antagonistic context. They're consistently portrayed as incompetent and corrupt throughout the entire series, and it's clear from their role in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix that they're a very autocratic regime. I mean, hell, they turn Hogwarts into an indoctrination camp and actually torture -- real, physical torture; he has scars in the shape of the words "I won't lie" on his hands ever after he's tortured by Umbridge -- their students. And that's to say nothing of the fact that their punishment for every damn crime is to subject suspects, convicted on however flimsy of evidence, to the influence of the Dementors -- an act of severe psychological abuse. Or, for that matter, their role in the oppression of non-Human magical creatures like Goblins, House Elves, and the like.

I don't know how much more "in the books" the Ministry's villainous role could possibly be. Again, I think this has more to do with someone approaching the books with certain assumptions about what role the Ministry will play but not paying attention to how it's actually portrayed.

... And instead of butting heads against the system in hopes, however vain, of saving lives, Harry and Dumby dither away a whole summer.

It's been a long time since I read Order of the Phoenix, but I rather distinctly remember it being established that Dumbledore was busy throughout the summer between Books 4 and 5, trying to get the Order of the Phoenix back up and running and trying (and failing) to get the Ministry to get its act together.

 

[Thestral]

In the most basic sense, it looks like it's a combination of the U.S. and U.K. systems.

Yeah, but my point was we get very little look at the actual structure of the government because it's almost never relevant to the story at hand, right?

- Unlike in HP, the UFP is virtually never presented as being threatened from within, only from without, i.e., in the form of entirely defensive military situations. And since, unlike HP, there's no scarcity to speak of in the UFP, nonmilitary politics are even less relevant.

Conspiracy, Homefront/Paradise Lost, Star Trek VI, and Star Trek: Insurrection, off the top of my head. All of these have to do with conspiracy's within Starfleet/the Federation, and yet reveal almost no information about the Federation's government aside from the existence of a Federation President and that there's a civilian government.

- No UFP citizens deny the threats of the Klingons, Borg, Dominion, etc. By explicitly modeling her MoM after pre-WW2 Britain, Rowling herself introduced a political element that she then utterly failed to elaborate on.

Homefront/Paradise Lost gives us a Federation President who's uncertain about the level of threat that the Dominion (via Changelings) pose, and shows the transformation of Earth from an idyllic world to one under martial law; despite this, the only politician or non-Sisko civilian we meet is President Jaresh-Inyo.

^ That may be true, but like so many of the "finer points" of Rowling's books, it requires a clarification from her after the fact (as in, it's not actually in the books themselves).

Of course it's in the books themselves! The first time the Ministry of Magic appears, they're threatening to send Hagrid off to be tortured by the Dementors on the basis of hearsay evidence! Every other time they appear, they appear in an antagonistic context. They're consistently portrayed as incompetent and corrupt throughout the entire series, and it's clear from their role in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix that they're a very autocratic regime. I mean, hell, they turn Hogwarts into an indoctrination camp and actually torture -- real, physical torture; he has scars in the shape of the words "I won't lie" on his hands ever after he's tortured by Umbridge -- their students. And that's to say nothing of the fact that their punishment for every damn crime is to subject suspects, convicted on however flimsy of evidence, to the influence of the Dementors -- an act of severe psychological abuse. Or, for that matter, their role in the oppression of non-Human magical creatures like Goblins, House Elves, and the like.

I don't know how much more "in the books" the Ministry's villainous role could possibly be. Again, I think this has more to do with someone approaching the books with certain assumptions about what role the Ministry will play but not paying attention to how it's actually portrayed.

... And instead of butting heads against the system in hopes, however vain, of saving lives, Harry and Dumby dither away a whole summer.

It's been a long time since I read Order of the Phoenix, but I rather distinctly remember it being established that Dumbledore was busy throughout the summer between Books 4 and 5, trying to get the Order of the Phoenix back up and running and trying (and failing) to get the Ministry to get its act together.

Absolutely Right.

Although it is worth noting that one group of Ministry officials - the Aurors - were generally presented in a positive light.

 

[Gojirob]

In the most basic sense, it looks like it's a combination of the U.S. and U.K. systems.

Yeah, but my point was we get very little look at the actual structure of the government because it's almost never relevant to the story at hand, right?

- Unlike in HP, the UFP is virtually never presented as being threatened from within, only from without, i.e., in the form of entirely defensive military situations. And since, unlike HP, there's no scarcity to speak of in the UFP, nonmilitary politics are even less relevant.

Conspiracy, Homefront/Paradise Lost, Star Trek VI, and Star Trek: Insurrection, off the top of my head. All of these have to do with conspiracy's within Starfleet/the Federation, and yet reveal almost no information about the Federation's government aside from the existence of a Federation President and that there's a civilian government.



Homefront/Paradise Lost gives us a Federation President who's uncertain about the level of threat that the Dominion (via Changelings) pose, and shows the transformation of Earth from an idyllic world to one under martial law; despite this, the only politician or non-Sisko civilian we meet is President Jaresh-Inyo.

Of course it's in the books themselves! The first time the Ministry of Magic appears, they're threatening to send Hagrid off to be tortured by the Dementors on the basis of hearsay evidence! Every other time they appear, they appear in an antagonistic context. They're consistently portrayed as incompetent and corrupt throughout the entire series, and it's clear from their role in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix that they're a very autocratic regime. I mean, hell, they turn Hogwarts into an indoctrination camp and actually torture -- real, physical torture; he has scars in the shape of the words "I won't lie" on his hands ever after he's tortured by Umbridge -- their students. And that's to say nothing of the fact that their punishment for every damn crime is to subject suspects, convicted on however flimsy of evidence, to the influence of the Dementors -- an act of severe psychological abuse. Or, for that matter, their role in the oppression of non-Human magical creatures like Goblins, House Elves, and the like.

I don't know how much more "in the books" the Ministry's villainous role could possibly be. Again, I think this has more to do with someone approaching the books with certain assumptions about what role the Ministry will play but not paying attention to how it's actually portrayed.

... And instead of butting heads against the system in hopes, however vain, of saving lives, Harry and Dumby dither away a whole summer.

It's been a long time since I read Order of the Phoenix, but I rather distinctly remember it being established that Dumbledore was busy throughout the summer between Books 4 and 5, trying to get the Order of the Phoenix back up and running and trying (and failing) to get the Ministry to get its act together.

Absolutely Right.

Although it is worth noting that one group of Ministry officials - the Aurors - were generally presented in a positive light.

Perhaps the Aurors came to dread the system they served, and made sure to get the right suspects, rather than just who the MoM demanded, and ended up with a degree of competence and professionalism absent in much of Wizarding Law Enforcement. Prolly in order to avoid being dragged in and questioned themselves, they became that good.

I thought about a comment someone made about Remus Lupin, and my fanboy sense gives me this possibility : Greyback (If FG is even his original name), being a sick ****, deliberately targeted young RL because of his name.

One small hope : The fact that Umbridge and presumably those like her were so quick to collaborate when the takeover occurred means that a more general, deeper purge than is historically usual took place when Shacklebolt took the seat; the irony being as always that the reforms he instituted likely protected some of those who most needed to be gone.

Just not *you*, Dolores Old Girl.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Voldemort did not not kill Harry with a knife because it was a 'dirty Muggle' thing to do (waaaa, someone call a fucking whambulance already), but because it would have ruined the nice drama. Totally, utterly, completely.

You can rationalise it all you want, but it's why no-one ever even considers it. If Voldemort were as smart as he claims to be, he'd go funky and focus on the ends, not the means.

...but, like Khan, he is retarded.

 

[Sci]

Voldemort did not not kill Harry with a knife because it was a 'dirty Muggle' thing to do (waaaa, someone call a fucking whambulance already), but because it would have ruined the nice drama. Totally, utterly, completely.

And when would Voldemort have had the opportunity to kill Harry with a knife? I can think of exactly three times (end of Goblet of Fire, end of Order of the Phoenix, and end of Deathly Hallows -- and all three times, Harry would have simply been able to expelliarmus it out of his hands. Most of the rest of the time, Harry was either safely at Hogwarts and under the protection of Dumbledore, safely at the Dursleys' and under his mum's spell's protection, or in hiding and therefore out of Voldemort's reach.

 

[Eleanor_zhDarjel]

And when would Voldemort have had the opportunity to kill Harry with a knife? I can think of exactly three times (end of Goblet of Fire, end of Order of the Phoenix, and end of Deathly Hallows -- and all three times, Harry would have simply been able to expelliarmus it out of his hands. Most of the rest of the time, Harry was either safely at Hogwarts and under the protection of Dumbledore, safely at the Dursleys' and under his mum's spell's protection, or in hiding and therefore out of Voldemort's reach.

Em, GOF, Harry fixed on a stone angel, unable to move? Send some to Hogwarts to do the job? (I don't know, Malfoy?) Intercept the stupid Express? Voldi had enough people in the ministry. They could just called him to the ministry and abducted him.

For me the story just works because no one has the comon sense to kill the kid and be done with it.

Voldi is a dork, sorry.

 

[Sci]

And when would Voldemort have had the opportunity to kill Harry with a knife? I can think of exactly three times (end of Goblet of Fire, end of Order of the Phoenix, and end of Deathly Hallows -- and all three times, Harry would have simply been able to expelliarmus it out of his hands. Most of the rest of the time, Harry was either safely at Hogwarts and under the protection of Dumbledore, safely at the Dursleys' and under his mum's spell's protection, or in hiding and therefore out of Voldemort's reach.

Em, GOF, Harry fixed on a stone angel, unable to move?

I mentioned that one already. The problem was -- Voldemort specifically wanted Harry to dual, because it's Wizarding tradition!

You know. Like I said.

And thereafter, Voldemort was never in a position to kill Harry with more conventional means; every time he encountered Harry again, it was in combat and Harry would have been able to expelliarmus any weapon he had out of his hands.

Send some to Hogwarts to do the job?

The books made it clear numerous times that Dumbledore's watchful eye and ability to protect the students was too powerful. Remember, there were only two Death Eaters that were ever able to get into the school before Dumbledore's assassination -- one was actually a double agent working for Dumbledore, and the other was a student whom Dumbledore was aware was a Death Eater and had allowed in, and who was not competent to kill anyone.

Intercept the stupid Express?

And what makes you think the Death Eaters were strong enough to openly attack the Hogwarts Express -- which no doubt would have had every protection from the Ministry and the Order of the Phoenix -- prior to the fall of the Ministry at the beginning of Book 7?

Voldi had enough people in the ministry. They could just called him to the ministry and abducted him.

For me the story just works because no one has the comon sense to kill the kid and be done with it.

Voldemort did not have enough people at the Ministry to do something like that until Book 7. And there were more than enough members of the Order who were also at the Ministry to have prevented something like that.

 

[Thestral]

And when would Voldemort have had the opportunity to kill Harry with a knife? I can think of exactly three times (end of Goblet of Fire, end of Order of the Phoenix, and end of Deathly Hallows -- and all three times, Harry would have simply been able to expelliarmus it out of his hands. Most of the rest of the time, Harry was either safely at Hogwarts and under the protection of Dumbledore, safely at the Dursleys' and under his mum's spell's protection, or in hiding and therefore out of Voldemort's reach.

Em, GOF, Harry fixed on a stone angel, unable to move?

I mentioned that one already. The problem was -- Voldemort specifically wanted Harry to dual, because it's Wizarding tradition!

You know. Like I said.

You, ah, actually didn't say that at all. You said "Harry would have simply been able to expelliarmus it out of his hands" (I bolded it for you) without dealing with the point where Voldie had Harry helpless and motionless. Which you did in your followup here, of course - but not originally.

Either way, the opportunity was there, it was just Moldywort's hideboundedness that kept him from doing the job.

 

[Sci]

You, ah, actually didn't say that at all.

Read the thread, dude. I talked about that much earlier.

Either way, the opportunity was there, it was just Moldywort's hideboundedness that kept him from doing the job.

Not really. Had it not been for the fact that Voldemort's and Harry's wands were linked because they were made from the same phoenix feather, Voldemort would probably have killed Harry with relative ease at the conclusion of The Goblet of Fire. (It was only after Goblet that Harry really began to train seriously for magical combat, after all.) I don't think it's reasonable to say that Voldemort was being stupid for not seeing something like that coming -- it was a completely unanticipated complication.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Voldemort did not not kill Harry with a knife because it was a 'dirty Muggle' thing to do (waaaa, someone call a fucking whambulance already), but because it would have ruined the nice drama. Totally, utterly, completely.

And when would Voldemort have had the opportunity to kill Harry with a knife? I can think of exactly three times (end of Goblet of Fire, end of Order of the Phoenix, and end of Deathly Hallows -- and all three times, Harry would have simply been able to expelliarmus it out of his hands. Most of the rest of the time, Harry was either safely at Hogwarts and under the protection of Dumbledore, safely at the Dursleys' and under his mum's spell's protection, or in hiding and therefore out of Voldemort's reach.

It's okay, dear. You're allowed to ignore the point of the argument and rationalise so that it all makes sense. I mean, it's not as if Voldemort had Harry in front of him completely helpless at least 3 times.

Oh, wait.

Anyway, I've called the wambulance for ya. They should be here any minute.

 

[Eleanor_zhDarjel]

Sci, whatever.

You see so much in this story that I fail to notice. But it's ok. I'll just hang on my stupid point of view and you to yours.

Cheers.