Thank you for making that point. I'm really sick and tired of making it myself again and again. The comics may not be a hundred percent canon, but they will not violate major plot points of the movie!
Harrison in the Prime Universe
- Thread starter Procutus
- Start date
Thank you for making that point. I'm really sick and tired of making it myself again and again. The comics may not be a hundred percent canon, but they will not violate major plot points of the movie!
Plus, as near as I can tell from watching both versions of the trailer, there's no evidence showing that Kirk DOESN'T know who Cumberbatch is. Assuming for a moment that he really could be Gary Mitchell, using an assumed name, the reveal of this almost certainly would be Kirk coming face to face with him and realizing that Mitchell had come back from the dead (assuming that two-part comic version of WNMHGB was in fact, backstory to the film).
A lot of speculation, I'll admit, but that was what this thread was all about. There's plenty of room to do that in between now and May 17.
I don't feel the villian is Mitchell or someone like him. Cumberbatch's villain is said to have a "cause" and have a very good handle on right and wrong. Not something you could say about Mitchell, post transition. He had little regard for morality or loyalty etc. Presumably the SS Valiant villain would be similar.
While both might be upset at humans trying to kill them, it would appear to be rather a Basil Fawlty type revenge (thrashing your car with a tree branch) from their POV . You might as well take revenge on an ant colony. That seems fairly petty and doesn't sound like the sort of motive we are hearing about.
Combine the above with Karl Urban's "joke" that it was Mitchell and I think the odds of it being him or even someone similar are rather long.
While both might be upset at humans trying to kill them, it would appear to be rather a Basil Fawlty type revenge (thrashing your car with a tree branch) from their POV . You might as well take revenge on an ant colony. That seems fairly petty and doesn't sound like the sort of motive we are hearing about.
Combine the above with Karl Urban's "joke" that it was Mitchell and I think the odds of it being him or even someone similar are rather long.
But... Orci helped IDW select the episodes to be remade, to enhance his own plans for the new movie. They may not ne canonical, but Orci wants them and other tie-ins to be consistent with the live-action stuff.
Why? Its not the same timeline and therefore the same set of events would not have occurred. What ever sets off John Harrison may never have happened in the Prime Universe.
This makes a great deal of sense, assuming the events that set him off take place after the divergence in the timeline.
The divergence happened the day Jim Kirk was born, so it's pretty likely that most of John Harrison's life happened afterwards.
Unless Harrison is some form of augment, and ages at a slower rate than the average human. But all things being equal, I tend to agree that you're right.
Also, just because I like to be nitpicky:
Universe 1: Kirk through Picard (including when Picard says FC with the Klingons was a disaster)
Universe 2: When the future guys attack the Klingon in Broken Bow, and...hey now FC doesn't resemble anything like what Picard said.
Universe 3: When Future Guy saves the NX-Enterprise, from a fate he says originally happened. (btw, My theory on who Future Guy was? Archer.)
Universe 4: 7 million Earthers are killed.
Now how many of these, if any, are predestination paradoxes? No clue. Which timeline does Old Spock come from? Doesn't matter. I'm just saying anything resembling canon is long gone.
Same universe. Earth's FC with the Klingons was a disaster and got worse each time Archer and the Klingons met. It also happened centuries before the TNG time frame. So it's two for two regarding Picard's statement.
First Contact said:
The last part is unknown, as we've no idea what happened in the decades between ENT and TOS. We also don't know which first contact with Klingons Picard was refering too. Could have been the first contact between the Klingons and Vulcan for all we know.
Finally, the guy who wrote the line in "First Contact" said Enterprise's take works fine with what was said. You may know him as My Name Is Legion, but mostly we call him "Dennis".
Heh. "Who am I to argue with history."
It may work fine. But you can understand my fanwank once Future Guys start sticking their big noses in.
Also, in the context of Picard's conversation...the events of Broken Bow just don't line up with what is being talked about. But I like your Vulcan FC theory. Also, by Picard's time...who knows what kind of info he has? Maybe all their history books teach is the important part. A Klingon crash landed, and a farmer shot him. See, I can fanwank both sides of the argument.
Last edited:
Picard was discussing the reasoning behind the UFP's first contact protocols. They didn't want disasters like what happened with the Klingons. A need to understand the people being contacted before official contact was made to insure there were no cultural misunderstandings. That pretty much fits "Broken Bow" to a T. Archer's ignorance of Klingon culture set Human/Klingon relations ( and by extension UFP/Klingon relations) off on the wrong foot and down the disaster path.
I go with the novelverse's interpretation - that the FC movie, the TCW stuff and the Xindi attack were always part of the Trek backstory, and it was these changes made to an earlier iteration of the timeline that created TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY in the first place. Any discontinuities are just out-of-universe retcons that don't count. (IIRC, Legion said he wrote the Klingon first contact stuff in "First Contact" as a throwaway few lines, never expecting them to feature said events years later - and that he didn't mind at all that they went in a different direction with it when they did.)
It has been suggested that, had Picard and crew not appeared in the past of 2063 as shown in ST:FC, that the Mirror Universe resulted from it.
Meaning: the MU, and the resultant Terran Empire, is the 'natural' evolution of the timeline, and it was only Picard's interference from the future that created the 'good' regular universe. Not surprising, as in the 24th century of the MU there is no Empire, no Imperial Starfleet, and thus no mirror universe Ent-E, to travel back in the first place...
Meaning: the MU, and the resultant Terran Empire, is the 'natural' evolution of the timeline, and it was only Picard's interference from the future that created the 'good' regular universe. Not surprising, as in the 24th century of the MU there is no Empire, no Imperial Starfleet, and thus no mirror universe Ent-E, to travel back in the first place...
Now that's an interesting thought. I haven't kept up with the novels now for a number of years, so I'm out of the loop on that theory. Do any of them propose what that earlier iteration of the timeline might've looked like, leading up to the 2260s? Any novel in particular I might want to read?
Exactly. Every time the Klingons showed up in ENT, I'd call the resulting events "disastrous" in the extreme. Archer pretty much did all the wrong things whenever he dealt with them (not surprising, since no human had any IDEA how to deal with Klingons).
We never get any idea what the virgin timeline would have been like. It's just discussions from the DTI novel Watching the Clock, where one of the agents doubts their cause (why fight to keep prevent alterations in the timeline when you're living in a corrupted timeline to begin with?)
I've heard that novel recommended more than once. Definitely putting it on my To-Read List.
Similar threads
