Harlan Ellison's "The Last Dangerous Visions" and the Harlan & Susan Ellison Memorial Library

[Jan]

J. Michael Straczynski (JMS) made a major announcement last night. He's the Executor of Harlan and Susan's estate. The news is that "The Last Dangerous Visions" will be completed and go out to auction in the Spring of 2021. Proceeds will go to establish and maintain the Harlan & Susan Ellison Memorial Library at Ellison Wonderland (aka The Lost Aztec Temple of Mars). Full announcement and how people can get involved here. https://patreon.com/posts/43848905

https://twitter.com/straczynski/status/1327393277264367616/photo/1

 

[Allyn Gibson]

After seeing Straczynski's announcement yesterday, I reread Christopher Priest's (the British sci-fi author, not the American comic book writer) The Last Deadloss Visions (also known as The Book on the Edge of Forever), a history, through the mid-80s, of Ellison's failure to publish The Last Dangerous Visions. One ironic passage is a note from George R.R. Martin, in the early 1990s, talking his own history of blown deadlines.

I fervently hope that Priest does not have to update the text to account for another near miss at publication. I think of the writers who have died without seeing the story they wrote for Ellison see print. (One recent example, Vonda McIntyre.) I wish JMS well.

 

[Greg Cox]

I've told this story elsewhere, but . . ..

Back in 1988, at an I-Con on Long Island, Ellison announced onstage, to thunderous applause, that LDV would be published soon. David Hartwell, who was standing with me at the back of the auditorium, quietly observed that he was glad to be present to hear this historic announcement "as I have been so many times before."

 

[RJDiogenes]

Holy Toledo, Ohio. I wondered if this might happen after Ellison died, but I don't think I knew that JMS was his executor. Of course, it won't be the same book it should have been, since so many stories were withdrawn over the years, and JMS is soliciting new material (which I have mixed feelings about), but if he can pull this off it will scientifically prove that anything is possible.

After seeing Straczynski's announcement yesterday, I reread Christopher Priest's (the British sci-fi author, not the American comic book writer) The Last Deadloss Visions (also known as The Book on the Edge of Forever), a history, through the mid-80s, of Ellison's failure to publish The Last Dangerous Visions.

I have that, under the latter title. It's an amazing, inexplicable story.

 

[Steve Roby]

Two things concern me about this:

First, back when the first Dangerous Visions was published, how many people would have been excited by the news of the long-awaited third volume of an anthology of tales from the crazed, cutting-edge age of the flappers and Prohibition?

Second, with this thing's endless history of not happening, why the hell would JMS announce it before even presenting it to publishers? Why not wait until every t is crossed and every i dotted?

 

[Jan]

Two things concern me about this:

First, back when the first Dangerous Visions was published, how many people would have been excited by the news of the long-awaited third volume of an anthology of tales from the crazed, cutting-edge age of the flappers and Prohibition?

As he said, some of the stories originally purchased can no longer be used due to the passage of time. Judging from the reactions I've seen, plenty of people are interested in this finally coming to fruition.

Second, with this thing's endless history of not happening, why the hell would JMS announce it before even presenting it to publishers? Why not wait until every t is crossed and every i dotted?

As he said, publishers have already expressed interest. The purpose of announcining it like this is twofold - to help him with the expenses that he's putting upfront via Patreon and to maximize revenue for the Harlan & Susan Ellison Memorial Library by taking it to auction once it's done.

 

[RJDiogenes]

First, back when the first Dangerous Visions was published, how many people would have been excited by the news of the long-awaited third volume of an anthology of tales from the crazed, cutting-edge age of the flappers and Prohibition?

First of all, probably quite a few. The time of Dangerous Visions was also the time of the Pulp revival of characters like The Shadow and Doc Savage-- not to mention The Hobbit-- which were all almost as old then as TLDV is now. Also, TLDV has become the stuff of legend.

Second of all, I'm going to go cry now.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I'm flipping these paragraphs around for a reason in my reply.

Second, with this thing's endless history of not happening, why the hell would JMS announce it before even presenting it to publishers? Why not wait until every t is crossed and every i dotted?

My cynical thought, when JMS said that he was soliciting new stories, was: "Why tempt fate like that?" Priest's essay is full of examples of Ellison announcing that the TOC is locked... and then he solicits more stories.

First, back when the first Dangerous Visions was published, how many people would have been excited by the news of the long-awaited third volume of an anthology of tales from the crazed, cutting-edge age of the flappers and Prohibition?

I honestly wonder how many publishers would be excited by this -- "The manuscript's a million and a half words long, a third of the authors are dead, two-thirds of the stories you're offering were written fifty years ago, the potential audience for this book is old, even with the new stories you've commissioned the line-up isn't particularly diverse. What kind of market do you think exists for this book?" I'm not trying to sound like a cynic, but the economics of the book aren't in its favor and really haven't been for thirty-five years. Commissioning new stories from writers who, in many cases, probably weren't even born when Ellison had the first TLDV story in hand, is a way to make the book more relevant to today's readers, I suppose, but that also makes the book less Ellison's TLDV and more JMS's TLDV.

If JMS ends up going the crowdfunding route just to get it out there, I will not be surprised.

 

[Jan]

I honestly wonder how many publishers would be excited by this -- "The manuscript's a million and a half words long, a third of the authors are dead, two-thirds of the stories you're offering were written fifty years ago, the potential audience for this book is old, even with the new stories you've commissioned the line-up isn't particularly diverse. What kind of market do you think exists for this book?"

Um...did you happen to read what JMS wrote rather than quote some other uninvolved author? Might want to do that. If JMS says "several major publishers have already expressed significant interest" that's true. Whether that stays the case once a finished manuscript is presented for auction remains to be seen. But unlike HE, JMS isn't known for hyperbole or exaggeration.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Um...did you happen to read what JMS wrote rather than quote some other uninvolved author? Might want to do that. If JMS says "several major publishers have already expressed significant interest" that's true. Whether that stays the case once a finished manuscript is presented for auction remains to be seen. But unlike HE, JMS isn't known for hyperbole or exaggeration.

Yes, I read what Straczynski wrote. Just because "several major publishers have already expressed interest" pre-auction does not mean the book will be economically viable for them to acquire and produce. It means, "Oh, there's a thing that might be worth money to us sometime next year." That's all it means. Interest does not equal excitement.

Look. I really hope that JMS does bring a version of TLDV to print. I'm just wondering how it could possibly cost less than $50 given the book's size and market for it.

 

[Jan]

Look. I really hope that JMS does bring a version of TLDV to print. I'm just wondering how it could possibly cost less than $50 given the book's size and market for it.

Except none of us even knows the size yet, do we, given what JMS has posted. We've apparently got a lot of data about what size it might have been originally, but not now.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Christopher Priest's estimate of the book's size in the mid-90s, based on what was then known, was 1,381,000 words. (For reference, that's 100k longer than Proust's À la recherche du temps perdu.) The stories themselves were estimated at 869,000 words. The 500k difference is Ellison's introductions and afterwords to each story, which may or may not have been written. (Priest believed that Ellison bogged down in writing those, which would be a reason the book never saw print in Ellison's lifetime if true.) Taking out stories and adding new ones would change the word count, true, but (limited ourselves to just the stories) you're still starting from a manuscript that was, best guess, one and a half times the length of War and Peace.

 

[Jan]

Taking out stories and adding new ones would change the word count, true, but (limited ourselves to just the stories) you're still starting from a manuscript that was, best guess, one and a half times the length of War and Peace.

Key word being was. At this point all that we can have is an uninformed opinion and we know what Harlan would have said about that, don't we. As for Priest's estimates, despite his research, there was never a verified word count given the flux of stories in and out even back then.

Time will tell. Meanwhile, I'm glad that I was already a member of JMS' Patreon so I can watch this happen.

 

[David cgc]

JMS has posted that The Last Dangerous Visions has been finished and is now being shopped to publishers (he mentions on his Patreon that he's got his fingers crossed for an auction). If you're curious, the final word count is about a tenth of Christopher Priest's estimate mentioned above, 112,000 words.

THE LAST DANGEROUS VISIONS has at last been completed. The final draft went off to the agency that will be handling the sale about fifteen minutes ago. This has been a massive effort...112,000 words...tracking down the estates of the original writers to be included in the book, and nailing down some newer A List writers; fans of Harlan's who wanted to be a part of TLDV. (And for the record, Harlan continued to buy stories for the anthology right through the 90s, and stopped only due to illness. He saw TLDV as a living document, and fought to keep it relevant when some stories became less timely or were supplanted by real world events.)

I will have more to say about the contents at a later date, but suffice to say that they include some of the most visionary writers in the science fiction genre over the last 48 years.

 

[Mudd]

Well, I'll look forward to this.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

If you're curious, the final word count is about a tenth of Christopher Priest's estimate mentioned above, 112,000 words.

For what it's worth, that's half the length of the original Dangerous Visions. Assuming that word coutn is not a typo, JMS appears to have done what Priest suggested Ellison do -- bring in an editor to help him and publish a "Best of Last Dangerous Visions" of about twenty stories instead of the 120-plus stories Ellison had acquired (and continued to acquire into the 90s). That's a valid approach, but it also leaves a lot on the cutting room floor and makes the book more JMS's than Ellison's since it's JMS who decided on the cuts and additions.

 

[Jan]

As usual, fans have opinions on something they haven't even seen yet. JMS has addressed this on his FB page:
http://file770.com/jms-has-more-to-say-about-the-last-dangerous-visions/

And understand that what *you* think the book should be isn’t the point…it’s what Harlan thought the book should be, which was never one particular thing, because it kept changing over the years. This reflects where all of that thinking finally wound up. This is the book that he would have wanted to see out there so that the writers included (all others have had their stories reverted so they can appear anywhere at the discretion of their estates or themselves) can receive the critical attention that those stories deserve.

 

[David cgc]

Updates from JMS on Facebook, including a partial list of contributors:

Big News: THE LAST DANGEROUS VISIONS is now going to publishers via the Janklow & Nesbit Agency (Emma Parry, NY, domestic; Nathaniel Alcaraz-Stapleton, London, foreign), with DANGEROUS VISIONS and AGAIN DANGEROUS VISIONS included in the purchase price to create a unified edition.

Contributors to THE LAST DANGEROUS VISIONS include Edward Bryant, Stephen Robinette, Max Brooks, DM Rowles, Dan Simmons, Cecil Castelluci, Cory Doctorow, Stephen Dedman, Patton Oswalt, Jonathan Fast, Howard Fast, Robert Sheckley, Adrian Tchaikovsky and James S.A. Corey.

It is very much the living document Harlan had always intended for it to be, bringing together new and established voices to examine the profoundly human issues that can only be addressed through speculative stories that take us over the horizon and back.

The wonder has been seeing firsthand the many ways in which the themes, concerns of all these stories are profoundly relevant and important across the span of their creation. The first two DANGEROUS VISIONS books changed the genre; I have hopes this will continue that tradition.

So to any publishers out there who would like to get in on this process, see the names appended at the top of this thread. (Janklow & Nesbit is one of the largest and most prestigious agencies in the world, and their belief in and support of this book has been most rewarding.)

He's also replied to several comments in the thread.

On the editing process:

Harlan had over a hundred stories slated for TLDV, which would never ever be sold in a modern market, and likely could not have been done then either, which was part of the problem. Since I had no direct connection to any of the writers other than to be in awe of their work was to pare down to the best of the best, the stories that were the most relevant and timeless and powerful. No, as I think I conveyed to you previously, James [Sutherland's] story did not make the cut, but his estate is free to sell it elsewhere, as with any and all of the other stories.

On the preponderance of white guys in the listed authors:

Connie Willis' story was withdrawn by her because she felt that she had already co-opted a lot of that story in writing her first novel; the Vonda McIntyre estate decided to hold onto her story; DM Rowles is a female writer as is Cecil Castelucci, and there is a non-binary new writer as well; in reaching out to the best and the brightest who would have name value for the book, I personally extended invitations (either directly or through their reps) to a diverse group of top writers including Namwali Serpel, Martha Wells, Ann Leckie, Nneti Okorafor, NK Jemisin, Becky Chambers, Amal El-Mohtar, Marlon James, Charlie Jane Anders, Ta-Nehesi Coates and Walter Mosley. By the time of the deadline, they had either not replied or their reps said they were busy or otherwise not available.

---

I totally agree [that science fiction literature has become much more diverse in the last 30-50 years], and I fought long and hard to achieve that, up to and including opening up submissions to anyone on the planet for a limited period that brought in over a hundred stories, all of which I read.

---

It should also be remembered that the book had to be in line with the stories Harlan bought from the 70s-90s, or it wouldn't be his vision or his book anymore. I could play at the edges, but that's all. And had the Willis and McIntyre stories not been withdrawn, along with a couple of others that fell away in the intervening years, the current version would have a much stronger female presence from those original stories.

 

[Steve Roby]

What would have interested me would be a series of books collecting all the stories Ellison acquired, with notes on historical context, and including Priest's Last Deadloss Visions, followed by an all-new anthology that would reflect diverse new writers. Folks like, I dunno, Ted Chiang, P. Djeli Clark, Sofia Samatar, Karin Tidbeck, Martha Wells, Silvia Moreno-Garcia, or whoever.It wouldn't have the impact one book might have, it wouldn't have been a huge seller and a media phenomenon, but it would have tracked the work Ellison did and the changes in SF over the decades.

What JMS is doing is neither fish nor fowl. It's not Ellison's Last Dangerous Visions. It's not a new, cutting edge anthology. I don't know if the world really is waiting for this particular version of the book.

 

[XCV330]

I'll say it.. Dangerous Visions was overrated. had some good bits. Maybe it really was pioneering for the time, but I always found the new wave boring and self indulgent. I guess you had to be there.