The egoism and inability to empathy with other peoples is 2/3 of evil.
Gul Dukat
- Thread starter jonds91
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The egoism and inability to empathy with other peoples is 2/3 of evil.
And he didn'tn just hurt Bajor and the Federation and other enemies of Cardassia. He sold Cardassia to the Dominion for his own personal gain! And that was before he flipped when Ziyal was killed.
Evil people don't necessarily walk down the street just looking for puppies to kick, they can be sympathetic sometimes, just in the end nothing matters to them but themselves.
Evil people don't necessarily walk down the street just looking for puppies to kick, they can be sympathetic sometimes, just in the end nothing matters to them but themselves.
Was he evil...or just a Cardassian?
Not to Godwin this thread, but that's like saying the same thing about Hitler. "Was he evil... or just German". I think we can all agree that there are plenty of perfectly wonderful Germans out there. I'm pretty sure the same can be said for Cardassians.
No, I don't really think that's a fair comparison.
Did Dukat do anything that stood out as extra cruel? He seemed to have the same thoughts and opinions as the other Cardassians we've seen. He was certainly considered evil by the Bajorans because he was the man in charge. But if you believe him he did try to improve things for the Bajorans.
I don't think that those are mutually exclusive. Someone can feel loss entirely on the basis of what has gone missing from their lives, but less for the suffering that the person felt themselves.
Personally, I think the notion of absolute, or pure, good or evil was antithetical to DS9. Good characters acted badly at times, evil characters might sometimes be upstanding. Even the "deities" of the series could be shown to lack empathy, and they could shortchange the agency of individuals (even when they might perform as they predict). Dukat felt sorrow at Ziyal's death--perhaps not that of a healthy person, given that he fixated on Sisko--but we, as compassionate people, can understand his loss and feel sorrow with him.
Berman didn't know shit!
Maybe I was misreading the intent of your post. I took your statement to mean that all Cardassians are evil. Is that not the case?
No, not really. I wouldn't say evil. But we are made to feel that all Cardassians have an arrogance to them, they are the "bad guys" and you're supposed to dislike them. My question is really is, was Dukat an average Cardassian, or was he overly cruel compared to others? Would another Cardassian in his place do the same thing and then also be labeled evil?
If we are to believe Dukat, another Cardassian may have done many more evil things in his place during the occupation. But of course, there are probably others who would have behaved better.
I must say the whole being supposed to dislike Cardassians never worked on me ... I get that a lot of the time the writers tried to do that but they were my favourite from day one. And in all fairness, they were varied and evolving in their opinions/level of 'evil', even if culturally they did have a generally rather 'bad guy' mentality.
But then I definitely think that they get a much worse reputation than the equally imperialist, warlike and often immoral Klingons. People don't generally see Klingons as evil just because they have an expansionist, warlike culture and some fairly backward social policies.
Well, I don't think he's evil actually anymore so than anyone else.
He is egotistical but not necessarily in regard to the death of his daughter.
I think a lot of us feel bad at the loss of s loved one, not because of Their suffering but because We miss them. Ziyal didn't really suffer that much, it was over for her pretty quickly .
I think Dukat had s lot of issues but he was not pure evil. That would make for an extremely shallow and boring character to have to watch every week on TV.
I think if you don't see Dukat is evil it's because you're believing his self-narrative about himself and not reading between the lines and seeing through to his actions or considering his true motives.
Yes, he did try to make the Bajorans slightly more comfortable slaves, but only so long as they stayed in their place and worshipped him as their master and savior. And when they didn't thank him and love him unconditionally he snapped back even harder. He was going for absolute obedience and learned dependence, and was only interested in making it slightly less horrible insofar as he gets the credit. In Waltz when he said "It was clear WE were the superior race", that wasn't a new thought, that was him admitting to his true motives.
I consider characters like this MORE evil than the ones that are just wandering around looking for puppies to kick. In real life the puppy-kickers hurt a few people then get caught, and the manipulative sociopaths like Dukat raise to positions of power and hurt millions.
He's the kind of guy who would start a Ms Teen Bajor contest, walk into the dressing rooms unannounced on a regular basis, then imprison the winner's family when she doesn't give him sexual favors.
Yes, he did try to make the Bajorans slightly more comfortable slaves, but only so long as they stayed in their place and worshipped him as their master and savior. And when they didn't thank him and love him unconditionally he snapped back even harder. He was going for absolute obedience and learned dependence, and was only interested in making it slightly less horrible insofar as he gets the credit. In Waltz when he said "It was clear WE were the superior race", that wasn't a new thought, that was him admitting to his true motives.
I consider characters like this MORE evil than the ones that are just wandering around looking for puppies to kick. In real life the puppy-kickers hurt a few people then get caught, and the manipulative sociopaths like Dukat raise to positions of power and hurt millions.
He's the kind of guy who would start a Ms Teen Bajor contest, walk into the dressing rooms unannounced on a regular basis, then imprison the winner's family when she doesn't give him sexual favors.
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^And call her fat.
Dukat got creepier in Season 6. I mean, he had Kira's mother and then wanted her...
Dukat got creepier in Season 6. I mean, he had Kira's mother and then wanted her...
If Garak's experience is any indication, Cardassian child rearing is rather harsh, and a prime breeding ground for future despots. (Dr. Alice Miller described Hitler's upbringing--his father would come home from his job as a petty civil servant and beat little Adolf.) Hitler would have been neutralized if the German people hadn't done his bidding. Likewise Dukat with the Cardassians (and Bajoran collaborators).
After Ziyal was killed, Dukat was a broken man, so I wouldn't classify him as pure evil. That doesn't mean he didn't go on to do more evil things and needed to be stopped. Likewise Kai Winn--her narrative is rather sad, desperate for affirmation from the prophets and not getting it. I'd like to sit in on the couples counseling sessions of Winn and Dukat.
After Ziyal was killed, Dukat was a broken man, so I wouldn't classify him as pure evil. That doesn't mean he didn't go on to do more evil things and needed to be stopped. Likewise Kai Winn--her narrative is rather sad, desperate for affirmation from the prophets and not getting it. I'd like to sit in on the couples counseling sessions of Winn and Dukat.
It isn't. You can't use the son of the man who runs a secretive and ruthless intelligence organization as a normal example. And Tain wasn't even just that, he lived the Obsidian Order.
No, I feel sorrow when I hear of the death of children I've never met. Dukat never would.
Dukat, to a greater and lesser degree, seems to be within.the boundaries of normal for the Cardassian state both military and civilian. Remember that show trails are normal practice for the Cardassians within the civilian domain.
The dissident faction carries influence but is still a minority tendency. The Obsidian Order governs informally with its omnipresent appartus to indoctrinate the masses. The masses themselves are more temperamentally moderate but are deferential towards the state. The Cardassian masses seem to have a historical memories of chaotic civilian government and have respect for the military for bringing order. (this strikes me as somewhat reminiscent of contemporary Egypt).
Order (rather than the exactitude of justice and truth) seems to be the main thing with the Cardassians. Hence the zero sum occupation Bajor got.
The dissident faction carries influence but is still a minority tendency. The Obsidian Order governs informally with its omnipresent appartus to indoctrinate the masses. The masses themselves are more temperamentally moderate but are deferential towards the state. The Cardassian masses seem to have a historical memories of chaotic civilian government and have respect for the military for bringing order. (this strikes me as somewhat reminiscent of contemporary Egypt).
Order (rather than the exactitude of justice and truth) seems to be the main thing with the Cardassians. Hence the zero sum occupation Bajor got.
