Greater Than The Sum (spoliers)

[Therin of Andor]

With more Big Events seeming to be likely, then the books between the events will have more "connect the dots" passages devoted to them", serving the larger plot rather that the primary plot of the book.

So what? People pleaded for better continuity for most of the 80s and 90s.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Continuity doesn't mean that all the books have to tie together, they just have to keep from contradicting each other. If the books is going to be used to tie up the loose ends from the previous event and to set up the next Big Event then the significance of the individual series books will be reduced. Not everything needs to be a crossover.

 

[DonIago]

(shrugs) Some of us like arcs.

 

[JD]

I know I do.

 

[Turtletrekker]

(shrugs) Some of us like arcs.

I know I do.

Yup.

 

[Stevil2001]

And some people don't. And other people like diversity in their story-telling. And still others like arcs, but only when they feel they're well-executed.

Yay! Differing opinions!

 

[kkozoriz1]

Exactly. I enjoy arcs within a series. It gives more attention to more characters rather than spreading it around.

DS9-R got it right, setting up storylines and following them up within the series. It built upon itself.

TNG-R, not so much. Characters introduced, badly handled and then dropped. The Borg, who are best in small does for the most part, showing up in book after book leading up to Destiny. Then the followup TNG book leads from Destiny right into the next Big Event.

As Christopher said:

Overall, of all my full-length Trek novels, GTTS is the only one that was substantially shaped by ideas other than my own. Like Aftermath and The Darkness Drops Again, it was one installment in a sequence developed by multiple authors, and so its story was shaped by the stories surrounding it. I was hired to create a transitional piece between what J. M. Dillard, KRAD, and PAD had done before me and what Dave was doing in Destiny, and this was after Destiny had been outlined. So there were certain beats I had to hit, certain outcomes I had to bring about. The decisions to get rid of Leybenzon and T'Lana and to add Choudhury to the crew were made before I was hired, though it was my job to determine how those things occurred.

When the Event gets in the way of telling a story, it's gotten too big. Typhon pact seems to be giving the writers more freedom. We'll see how it goes. That said, I'd like to see TNG run a multi book arc but not as a series released in a short time frame. Think DS9-R (post Mission Gamma) or Vanguard more than Typhon Pact. Even a Mission Gamma Event could work as long as the focus was on the Enterprise crew and not on crossing over with other ships and crews.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Continuity doesn't mean that all the books have to tie together, they just have to keep from contradicting each other. If the books is going to be used to tie up the loose ends from the previous event and to set up the next Big Event then the significance of the individual series books will be reduced. Not everything needs to be a crossover.

I was thinking of this yesterday, and here I see the arguments continue. As a completist who's seen every ST episode and owns every book and comic, I rarely miss the little asides, in-jokes, prequels, sequels and guest reappearances of past one-shot characters etc. Almost every ST licensed product has at least one off that list. They are asides, in-jokes, prequels, sequels, guest reappearances to those in the know, but still enjoyable stories for those who are not, or those who have forgotten.

Not everyone has seen or read everything. (I certainly haven't read everything, although in about 2002 I could make that claim, for a few months). Canonically, just as they can watch any episode of TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY or ENT, or any ST movie - and feel quite fulfilled that they've seen a whole new story (except maybe the ones that end on a cliffhanger, of course) - the new situation with the post-"Destiny" books should not be any different. Like almost-always, you won't have to have read every preceding adventure to enjoy the one in your hand.

To some, even standalone novels are full of asides, in-jokes, prequels, sequels and guest reappearances. Even if every future book is a standalone, you can bet your life that the authors (who are fans, too) will be adding their own little Tuckerisms, asides and in-jokes, writing new stories that act as prequels or sequels to known adventures, or devising alternate timelines (that are enriched if you know that bit of the main timeline well), and guest reappearances of canonical and Treklit characters, places, events, etc.

 

[kkozoriz1]

The asides, in-jokes, winks at the reader, etc are fine as long as they're not overdone. (The mynoc pulled me right out of Open Secrets. Too obvious.) Guest stars can work as well as long as they have a good reason for being there and not used JUST because we've seen them before.

It's having an Event or Events that take place at the same time for the series. Once it makes it fun. Twice makes it seem that the Trek universe is a small town. Three times makes it like a trailer park.

We've got a crossover coming up, Indistinguishable from Magic, that uses characters from multiple series. Toss in Destiny, the lesser crossovers of Typhon Pact and others and Starfleet starts to look like it's staffed by 3000 people.

 

[JD]

We've got a crossover coming up, Indistinguishable from Magic, that uses characters from multiple series.=

See for me that's a major plus. The characters in that story are some of my favorites, and I really love the idea of seeing them work together.

I'll be honest, when it comes to things like crossovers and stuff like that I really don't give a crap about realism, all I need is for it to be entertaining and for it to at least make sense. In fact, that's pretty much how I feel about most stories.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The mynoc pulled me right out of Open Secrets. Too obvious.

And yet I still have absolutely no idea what a mynoc is. So it was an in-joke lost on me. I assume it's a creature from BSG, Stargate or Star Wars.

Ah, "... a silicon-based parasitical organism found across the galaxy".

I've seen all the SW movies, but can't place a mynock. But so what? How does it pull you out of the story? Just smirk and move on.

Starfleet starts to look like it's staffed by 3000 people.

So what? We only ever follow the popular characters anyway. 3000 characters would be a lot to get to know in depth. Canonical characters that don't gel onscreen are usually neglected by the screenwriters and novelists. Surely nobody wants a lifetime of ST novels in which all the main characters become loners, for the sake of believability, and we end up waiting a decade or so between each book that will feature them.

See for me that's a major plus. The characters in that story are some of my favorites, and I really love the idea of seeing them work together.

Ditto!

 

[kkozoriz1]

The mynoc pulled me right out of Open Secrets. Too obvious.

And yet I still have absolutely no idea what a mynoc is. So it was an in-joke lost on me. I assume it's a creature from BSG, Stargate or Star Wars.

Ah, "... a silicon-based parasitical organism found across the galaxy".

I've seen all the SW movies, but can't place a mynock. But so what? How does it pull you out of the story? Just smirk and move on.

Starfleet starts to look like it's staffed by 3000 people.

So what? We only ever follow the popular characters anyway. 3000 characters would be a lot to get to know in depth. Canonical characters that don't gel onscreen are usually neglected by the screenwriters and novelists. Surely nobody wants a lifetime of ST novels in which all the main characters become loners, for the sake of believability, and we end up waiting a decade or so between each book that will feature them.

See for me that's a major plus. The characters in that story are some of my favorites, and I really love the idea of seeing them work together.

Ditto!

The mynoc came hot on the heels of a ship being described just like the Millenium Falcon, which is the ship the mynoc was found on. Overkill.

Why not have a secondary ship assigned to the same area that we can get to know when an extra ship is needed? It works great in Vanguard. Why box yourself in?

DS9 has a huge station, a wormhole with ships coming and going and Bajor and Cardassia nearby. There's TONS of storytelling potential without bringing in the guest star from another series.

Titan has a crew made up of all sorts of races that we know little about and have never crewed a starship together before. Add in some deep space exploration (you know, strange new worlds, new civilizations) and who needs Picard showing up?

 

[JD]

Which is exactly what we have consistantly gotten in the Titan books. Hell, even in Destiny they were out exploring, and even ran into the Caeliar, who were as far as I know a new civilisation that they encountered in deep space. And Picard hasn't even appeared in any Titan books.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Why not have a secondary ship assigned to the same area that we can get to know when an extra ship is needed? It works great in Vanguard. Why box yourself in?

Since when do the novels box themselves in? Only in your imagination.

Every ST novel has introduced new ships, planets and/or new personnel, but this is ST and, in the main, it is expected by the buyers of licensed fiction that they will be able to read about characters they already know from canon. By your logic, the minute that new ship is reintroduced in another novel, the writer has committed Small Universe Syndrome, so you're advocating that the novels spend lots of time telling us about great new characters we are doomed never to see again?

"New Frontier" had some new-to-fiction characters but, IIRC, Paramount insisted on some familiar canonical faces to join them, so PAD specifically asked for his TNG guest actress favourites, on a promise that the canon had probably finished with them: Shelby, Selar, Lefler. Similarly, "Titan" reintroduced DS9's Melora the Elaysian, based on a character concept the show was unable to use as a regular. SCE added Scotty and reintroduced Sonya Gomez and a pair of Bynars. The DS9 Relaunch has reintroduced Ro and Opaka, among others.

DS9 has a huge station, a wormhole with ships coming and going and Bajor and Cardassia nearby.

And they do.

There's TONS of storytelling potential without bringing in the guest star from another series.

But there is also storytelling potential in having two known (to us) characters meeting up and learning to work together. Again, you seem to be advocating that the novels spend lots of time telling us about great new characters we won't ever to see again.

Titan has a crew made up of all sorts of races that we know little about and have never crewed a starship together before.

And that's precisely what every "Titan" novel has brought us.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Which is exactly what we have consistantly gotten in the Titan books. Hell, even in Destiny they were out exploring, and even ran into the Caeliar, who were as far as I know a new civilisation that they encountered in deep space. And Picard hasn't even appeared in any Titan books.

And yet managed to get back to the AQ and take part in the hijinks.

And I didn't mean Picard specifically, just as an example.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Why not have a secondary ship assigned to the same area that we can get to know when an extra ship is needed? It works great in Vanguard. Why box yourself in?

Since when do the novels box themselves in? Only in your imagination.

Every ST novel has introduced new ships, planets and/or new personnel, but this is ST and, in the main, it is expected by the buyers of licensed fiction that they will be able to read about characters they already know from canon. By your logic, the minute that new ship is reintroduced in another novel, the writer has committed Small Universe Syndrome, so you're advocating that the novels spend lots of time telling us about great new characters we are doomed never to see again?

"New Frontier" had some new-to-fiction characters but, IIRC, Paramount insisted on some familiar canonical faces to join them, so PAD specifically asked for his TNG guest actress favourites, on a promise that the canon had probably finished with them: Shelby, Selar, Lefler. Similarly, "Titan" reintroduced DS9's Melora the Elaysian, based on a character concept the show was unable to use as a regular. SCE added Scotty and reintroduced Sonya Gomez and a pair of Bynars. The DS9 Relaunch has reintroduced Ro and Opaka, among others.

DS9 has a huge station, a wormhole with ships coming and going and Bajor and Cardassia nearby.

And they do.

There's TONS of storytelling potential without bringing in the guest star from another series.

But there is also storytelling potential in having two known (to us) characters meeting up and learning to work together. Again, you seem to be advocating that the novels spend lots of time telling us about great new characters we won't ever to see again.

Titan has a crew made up of all sorts of races that we know little about and have never crewed a starship together before.

And that's precisely what every "Titan" novel has brought us.

The novels box themselves in when they keep going back to having the same groups of characters interacting. Starfleet should have hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in it. Yet, when there's a big crisis, it's the same folks meeting up. Show how widespread an Big Event is by having things happen so far apart that the same ships and/or <grin> can't meet up. Typhon Pact seems to be going mostly in this direction although there's still some crossover.

I found New Frontier too heavy in the established character/new character ratio. Adding Arex and M'Ress to the mix just slanted things even further. (Not to mention that New Frontier is mostly set up for jokes that are getting more feeble as the series goes on.)

Vanguard seems to be doing quite well with a cast of almost entirely new characters. I'm a bit concerned with Nogura, Marcus and Gorkon being added to the mix though. Are you saying that Vanguard would be improved if the Enterprise showed up every couple of books? The TV series didn't need support from characters from other shows to tell their story. O'Brien became a great, rich character when he switched to DS9. Once the series was well established Worf was added to the mix because of the Klingon situation. He stayed with the series though. It wasn't a one off visit.

 

[JD]

Which is exactly what we have consistantly gotten in the Titan books. Hell, even in Destiny they were out exploring, and even ran into the Caeliar, who were as far as I know a new civilisation that they encountered in deep space. And Picard hasn't even appeared in any Titan books.

And yet managed to get back to the AQ and take part in the hijinks.

And I didn't mean Picard specifically, just as an example.

And as soon as the crisis was over they went back out exploring, and in the books since they're still out there. And from what we've heard on here, they're still "out there" in Seize the Fire.

Why not have a secondary ship assigned to the same area that we can get to know when an extra ship is needed? It works great in Vanguard. Why box yourself in?

Since when do the novels box themselves in? Only in your imagination.

Every ST novel has introduced new ships, planets and/or new personnel, but this is ST and, in the main, it is expected by the buyers of licensed fiction that they will be able to read about characters they already know from canon. By your logic, the minute that new ship is reintroduced in another novel, the writer has committed Small Universe Syndrome, so you're advocating that the novels spend lots of time telling us about great new characters we are doomed never to see again?

"New Frontier" had some new-to-fiction characters but, IIRC, Paramount insisted on some familiar canonical faces to join them, so PAD specifically asked for his TNG guest actress favourites, on a promise that the canon had probably finished with them: Shelby, Selar, Lefler. Similarly, "Titan" reintroduced DS9's Melora the Elaysian, based on a character concept the show was unable to use as a regular. SCE added Scotty and reintroduced Sonya Gomez and a pair of Bynars. The DS9 Relaunch has reintroduced Ro and Opaka, among others.

And they do.



But there is also storytelling potential in having two known (to us) characters meeting up and learning to work together. Again, you seem to be advocating that the novels spend lots of time telling us about great new characters we won't ever to see again.

Titan has a crew made up of all sorts of races that we know little about and have never crewed a starship together before.

And that's precisely what every "Titan" novel has brought us.

The novels box themselves in when they keep going back to having the same groups of characters interacting. Starfleet should have hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in it. Yet, when there's a big crisis, it's the same folks meeting up. Show how widespread an Big Event is by having things happen so far apart that the same ships and/or <grin> can't meet up. Typhon Pact seems to be going mostly in this direction although there's still some crossover.

I found New Frontier too heavy in the established character/new character ratio. Adding Arex and M'Ress to the mix just slanted things even further. (Not to mention that New Frontier is mostly set up for jokes that are getting more feeble as the series goes on.)

Vanguard seems to be doing quite well with a cast of almost entirely new characters. I'm a bit concerned with Nogura, Marcus and Gorkon being added to the mix though. Are you saying that Vanguard would be improved if the Enterprise showed up every couple of books? The TV series didn't need support from characters from other shows to tell their story. O'Brien became a great, rich character when he switched to DS9. Once the series was well established Worf was added to the mix because of the Klingon situation. He stayed with the series though. It wasn't a one off visit.

This just doesn't make sense to me. I just don't see what the point of doing something like Trek Lit if you're not going to be using the Trek universe. The point of tie-ins like Trek is to expand on the universe featured in the franchise, and many times that means bringing back old characters. I mean just look at the Star Wars books, they're constantly bringing back old characters from other parts of the franchise. Hell, they brought characters from the Clone Wars into the Legacy series, which set 100 years after Revenge of the Sith.

I think that's what has people so confused. You're objecting to a tie-in series tieing into it's parent franchise.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I'm objecting to it making the series seem smaller when it should be expanding it. The books aren't constrained like you are on TV. You don't have to tell the story in 44 minutes. Your aliens don't have to fit an actor inside them. Trek has a huge universe, why keep drinking from the same well? Expanding the universe means going back to what we've seen before?

It's like Sarjenka, a wonderful character who had a great little ending to the story we saw her in. She's brought back, regains her memory (undoing the end of the story) and enlists in Starfleet so she can hang around with the same people we see all the time. Does everyone have to end up serving with the canon crews?

 

[JD]

Yeah, but they still spend the majority of the stories dealing with new stuff. I don't see where it's anywhere near as bad as you're making it out to be. Sure they bring back old characters, but when they do they're usually still dealing with new characters and new races.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The novels box themselves in when they keep going back to having the same groups of characters interacting. Starfleet should have hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in it.

But ST fans are buying ST fiction to read ST stories about their favourite ST characters.

If you want books about people you've never known about before, and who will not be permitted to meet again beyond one adventure, then you need to give up on licensed tie-ins.