Gotham - Season 1

[Guy Gardener]

For a brief flash, Crispen Allen was the Spectre, who is perhaps the ultimate supernatural force in the DCU.

Montoya will eventually become the Question who is plagued by bad dreams which turn out to be real.

 

[sidious618]

Why would you lecture someone at such lengths over a small thing like that?

Why would you think my intent was to "lecture?" I'm providing fuller information on the topic that's been raised. Basically I'm just conveying Wikipedia and IMDb's information on the character, to save people the trouble of looking it up themselves. I see that as being helpful. It's something I'm good at -- doing research and reporting what I find -- and I like to feel useful. It always hurts and puzzles me when people misconstrue it as some kind of condescending attack. I'm just trying to contribute.

If people are constantly misconstruing what you say as being condescending then the problem lies with you and not the reader. I have no idea what your intent is, but I thought you came across as quite condescending and this is not the first time. My intention is not to attack, but if you want people to discuss and to become more interested in genre work, you're going to need to understand that people will make mistakes and be naive. If it is not your intention to come across as if you're lecturing then that's great, but to others, and not just me, it comes across as if you are. If you disagree then that's fine, but keep in mind that this is hardly the first time you've come across this problem.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

He's in the Arkham Origins video game as a hostage, but it's unclear from Wikipedia whether his corruption is mentioned.

It's mentioned in his in game bio and in his in game appearance.

 

[davejames]

If people are constantly misconstruing what you say as being condescending then the problem lies with you and not the reader. I have no idea what your intent is, but I thought you came across as quite condescending and this is not the first time. My intention is not to attack, but if you want people to discuss and to become more interested in genre work, you're going to need to understand that people will make mistakes and be naive. If it is not your intention to come across as if you're lecturing then that's great, but to others, and not just me, it comes across as if you are. If you disagree then that's fine, but keep in mind that this is hardly the first time you've come across this problem.

Eh, it didn't come across as condescending to me. Christopher does like to make his lists, and sometimes it might come across a bit showoffy I guess (although I'm sure that's not his intent), but everyone on here has their own unique style, and after awhile you just kinda get used to it.

I don't really see what the big problem is.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Arrow ( and its looks like the Flash) do quite a bit of name dropping and borrowing from the larger DC Universe, but I don't see Gotham as being that type of show. I think they'll stick to the Batman mythos.

 

[davejames]

So, I wonder how long before the series (if it lasts) introduces more "superntural" or overtly comic-book elements to it? Would an off-the-cuff mention of Smallville or Metropolis count? (Implying that there's a child from a crashed space ship living out there somewhere?) A mission that has ties to Themyscira?

Or will the show strictly stick in the mundane?

As clearly comic booky as the show is in style, I don't think the more supernatural elements that we used to see in BTAS would really fit that well. The world still feels at least a bit too grounded and real for that I think.

Although who knows, over time the show could evolve in different ways to allow that kind of thing.

 

[Reverend]

is it my imagination or does Ben McKenzie bring to mind a young Russell Crow...

A bit, perhaps.

I certainly got something of an 'LA Confidential' vibe from the guy, though that may have as much to do with his performance as his passing resemblance.

 

[Christopher]

Eh, it didn't come across as condescending to me. Christopher does like to make his lists, and sometimes it might come across a bit showoffy I guess (although I'm sure that's not his intent), but everyone on here has their own unique style, and after awhile you just kinda get used to it.

Thank you. I do love making lists and organizing information -- I'm kind of compulsive about it, so when I set out to answer a question or comment on a topic, I tend to get caught up in compiling as thorough a list as possible. When I give one of my big infodumps, it's not about showing off to other people, it's just about satisfying my own internal drive to be hyper-thorough. Research is fun!

In this case, the comment about Loeb being in most versions caught my interest because I mainly only know the character from Year One and the Nolan films. So I wanted to find out if the character had, in fact, been depicted elsewhere, for my own curiosity. And the result of my investigation, which I reported, is that he mostly hasn't. Although, as I said, given that Y1 is the archetypal portrayal of the corrupt pre-Commissioner Gordon era in Gotham, I can certainly understand the perception that Loeb would be an integral part of that era. Of those few versions of the Batman saga that have depicted that early period, the two biggest ones -- the comics and the films -- have included a version of the character. The animated versions haven't, but then, they've also downplayed the corruption in the GCPD. The officials in the cartoons who've been adversaries for Batman -- Chief Rojas in The Batman, Harvey Dent in Beware the Batman -- have been more just arrogant but well-intentioned extremists who sincerely believed Batman was a criminal (indeed, Gordon himself was initially adversarial to Batman in BtB).

So I guess it's a matter of how you interpret JD's comment that Loeb is a major part of "most versions of the story." If that means versions of the Batman story in general, then that wouldn't be true; but if it specifically means versions of the story of the institutional corruption in Gotham during Gordon's early career, then the comment is pretty close to the mark, although there really aren't as many distinct explorations of that corruption as I would've expected.

So, in short, no Loeb yet in Gotham, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him.

 

[Greg Cox]

For a brief flash, Crispen Allen was the Spectre, who is perhaps the ultimate supernatural force in the DCU.

Montoya will eventually become the Question who is plagued by bad dreams which turn out to be real.

And apparently Jim Corrigan, who is destined to become the original Spectre, will be appearing on CONSTANTINE . . . .

I doubt that GOTHAM's producers are planning to go the Spectre route with Allen, if only because the Spectre is a better fit for CONSTANTINE and because, as noted, the Crispus Allen version of the Spectre is basically a footnote at this point--although he did appear in a couple of my DC Comics novelizations.

(The less said about Hal Jordan's short-lived stint as the Spectre, the better!)

 

[Dorian Thompson]

is it my imagination or does Ben McKenzie bring to mind a young Russell Crow...

A bit, perhaps.

I certainly got something of an 'LA Confidential' vibe from the guy, though that may have as much to do with his performance as his passing resemblance.

Thank you. I'm glad that someone noticed besides myself. McKenzie really brought something beyond matinee idol good looks to the role. If Gordon isn't a character you immediately admire, Gotham doesn't work. Period.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

So, I wonder how long before the series (if it lasts) introduces more "superntural" or overtly comic-book elements to it? Would an off-the-cuff mention of Smallville or Metropolis count? (Implying that there's a child from a crashed space ship living out there somewhere?) A mission that has ties to Themyscira?

Or will the show strictly stick in the mundane?

As clearly comic booky as the show is in style, I don't think the more supernatural elements that we used to see in BTAS would really fit that well. The world still feels at least a bit too grounded and real for that I think.

Although who knows, over time the show could evolve in different ways to allow that kind of thing.

I seem to recall a "no flights, no tights" rule for another superhero series that was eventually abandoned as well.

Even Arrow started off much more grounded with less of the superhero tropes, most notably seen in the antagonists and really trying to avoid super powers of any kind, than what we've seen recently.

 

[Christopher]

I seem to recall a "no flights, no tights" rule for another superhero series that was eventually abandoned as well.

Well, not really; Smallville clung fanatically to keeping Clark grounded and out of costume until the final episode, even as other costumed heroes and flying Kryptonians proliferated around him.

Even Arrow started off much more grounded with less of the superhero tropes, most notably seen in the antagonists and really trying to avoid super powers of any kind, than what we've seen recently.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean Gotham will follow the same path. At least Arrow actually centered on a superhero, even if he hadn't embraced the role yet. Gotham is centered on the cops and gangsters, with Bruce Wayne on the periphery.

 

[davejames]

Thank you. I'm glad that someone noticed besides myself. McKenzie really brought something beyond matinee idol good looks to the role. If Gordon isn't a character you immediately admire, Gotham doesn't work. Period.

Yeah I had always dismissed McKenzie from his OC days, but he was absolutely fantastic on Southland (and frankly seeing him play another cop in Gotham just makes me want to rewatch that old and much better show instead).

Well, not really; Smallville clung fanatically to keeping Clark grounded and out of costume until the final episode, even as other costumed heroes and flying Kryptonians proliferated around him.

Which is another thing that always really bugged me about that show. To have all these lesser characters and superheroes flying or running around in costumes, loooong before Clark finally decides to put on a suit and become Superman, just felt really... wrong somehow.

I realize there's nothing saying that Superman always has to be the first superhero in this world, and I appreciate that the writers were trying to do something different with the character... but it still felt to me like it was diminishing him way too much (and that's on top of how much he was diminished by all the hemming and hawing about whether he wanted to be a hero in the first place).

 

[JacksonArcher]

Smallville should have just become a Superman show towards the end.

It had practically all of the elements for a Superman show, especially when the show started being set more in Metropolis than actually in Smallville itself. There was Lois Lane, the Daily Planet, other superheroes, Jimmy Olsen, etc. The "no tights and no flights" rule, which seemed to be somewhat refreshing when the show first started, became hindering towards the end. That or the show needed to end a lot sooner than it did.

I always thought the show should have become Metropolis more than halfway through and Clark should have become Superman, but alas.

 

[Forbin]

^^That's why I baled around ... whenever it was Clark became Evil Kal-El. His mother said "Clark, you can fly!" Clark said "No. Kal El can fly." I said "Screw this noise, good bye."

 

[davejames]

Metropolis would definitely be a cool title for a Superman TV series, and I hope we get to see it used someday.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sliding time aside, the first Speed movie had to have already happened (there have been 3 so far.) so what's this bullshit about not even shooting the hostage taker, when the clear route at this point, as laid down in Speed, is to shoot the hostage.

 

[Trekker4747]

Yeah, Smallville stuck to the "no flights, no tights" rule fanatically. It made sense when Clark was in high-school and even for a few years after high-school but he eventually for all intents and purposes became a costumed hero at one point ant the series began embracing more and more the greater DC universe.

At some-point they should have abandoned that concept and just made him Superman already or at least given us a real show of him in the suit in the final episode.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Do you know what money is?

Smallville did not have the rights to Superman.

(Crazy right?!)

How much could it possibly cost?

(Budgets are harsh, if they had to pay 10 grand an episode for Clark to wear Superman's costume, they would have probably had to fire a boom operator.)

Superman guest starred on an episode of I love Lucy for ####'s sake.

 

[Christopher]

Smallville should have just become a Superman show towards the end.

It had practically all of the elements for a Superman show, especially when the show started being set more in Metropolis than actually in Smallville itself. There was Lois Lane, the Daily Planet, other superheroes, Jimmy Olsen, etc. The "no tights and no flights" rule, which seemed to be somewhat refreshing when the show first started, became hindering towards the end. That or the show needed to end a lot sooner than it did.

Exactly. The producers never expected the show to run more than 5-6 years, so as it dragged out to its eventual 10 seasons, they had to bring in more comics storylines and elements of the adult Superman's life to keep it going, and they really should've just gone whole-hog and become a Superman series. Heck, in the last 3 seasons it was a Superman series in all but name. But someone -- I've heard that it was Welling himself, though it's unclear -- adamantly did not want Welling to wear the Superman costume or fly on a regular basis.

As for changing the title... the last couple of seasons seemed to justify Smallville as being Lois's nickname for Clark rather than the setting of the show (which it really wasn't by that point).