Goodbye, Pontiac...

[CaptainHawk1]

My 2002 Chevy Cavalier went 142,000 miles before being totaled thanks to a woman who rolled a stop sign. Great damned car that actually had a timing chain, rather than a belt.

Rare and few and far between.

My 2006 Accord has a timing chain, too. I don't think they are as rare as you think.

HA!!!

No, no, no my fellow brethren Accord owner what I referring to was that a 2002 Chevy Cavalier going 142,000 miles without a hiccup was rare and few and far between. I really don't know anything about how common a timing chain is.

The fact is that I could take a dump all day on GM as far as quality and reliability is concerned compared to Toyota or Honda and people are going to come out of the woodwork with their anecdotal stories about the Buick they had for 25 years or Cavalier that went 142K miles with no problems but it still doesn't change the fact that overall, they aren't reliable in general which is the main reason they depreciate so quickly and Hondas and Toyotas don't. Nor does it change the fact that it's the primary reason why they are outselling U.S. automakers in U.S.

 

[Trekker4747]

Timing chains are, indeed, a rare breed. My 1989 Temp had one, my 2000 Focus doesn't. Figure that one out.

 

[John Picard]

Timing chains are, indeed, a rare breed. My 1989 Temp had one, my 2000 Focus doesn't. Figure that one out.

I had a 1994 Ford Escort Wagon with the timing belt. Thank God those engines are non-interference, because when that belt broke I'd have FUBAR'd the engine. I didn't know what to think when I made the 4-5 shift and the engine made a funny sound while losing power. Replacing it was a bear, too.

 

[Canadave]

Also, I had a 1982 Buick Riviera once. That car didn't finally die until 2005. I have never seen a Japanese car last this long, nor have I seen one keeping around that long. Simply put, Japanese cars are boring and uglier than Sin. Even if depending on foreigners for transportation didn't bother me, I still wouldn't buy from those bums.

Have you ever driven a Honda? Even the Fit is a hell of a fun car to drive.

 

[Sephiroth]

lol, i have a 1973 grand prix, its the size of a boat, but it runs great

 

[Brolan]

couldn't they drop Buick & Saturn instead? *goes out to sit in my Trans-Am*

They said in January that Saturn was going to be dropped which makes no sense at all as Saturn is actually profitable.

Some of the Saturn dealers, and a private investment group in Oklahoma City, are looking to buy Saturn.

Some guy on another forum I'm on wanted to bash American cars, bragging how Nissan Altimas are much superior to the Ford Taurus. Here's what I found:

Hmm, interesting issue with the 2003 Altima :


Compared to a 2003 Ford Taurus:

Moderate Problems
An occasional problem on this vehicle is failure of the Fuel Pump. This failure will prevent the vehicle from starting. The cost to repair the Fuel Pump is estimated at $263.90 for parts and $110.50 for labor. All prices are estimates based on $65 per flat rate hour and do not include diagnostic time or any applicable sales tax.

Seems like you're one of those who's stuck in the 1980's and keeps parroting that (all) American cars are junk.

Strangely enough I still have a 2000 Taurus, I bought new, that has 130K miles on it. The only major repair was the fuel pump.

 

[Shatmandu]

They built some sturdy cars back in the day.

I got my first blowjob in a brush-painted, orange '72 Pontiac Firebird, and if my kicking legs didn't break through the floorboard, nothing would.

Joe, buys American

Well, there you have it. A ringing endorsement for quality American manufacturing if I've ever heard one.

Come to think of it, I also busted many a nut in a girlfriend's Plymouth Duster. And a few years later, I managed to successfully have intercourse in a Renault Le Car.

Is my dick spit the kiss of death to auto manufacturers?

If so, watch out, Honda: we're taking the Odyssey camping this summer ...

Joe,

 

[Captain Ice]

I've never had a GM vehicle that didn't start to have major problems with it within 4 years of owning it. This is my tenth year with my 2000 Honda Accord and my sixth year with my 2004 Toyota 4Runner and I have had no problems with either vehicle..

And this is my 6th year driving a 1997 Pontiac Grand Am with 132000 current miles on it. It runs like a top.

And yet, my Dad's 2003 Toyota Camry with 50,000 on the clock has just had it's steering rack replaced at $1600.

The Japanese brands are NOT immune from having major problems and the American brands do NOT build crap cars. Fact is that all the brand itself is is an indicator. While I'll agree that Japanese brands are better indicators of reliability, they're not the be all and end all.

Here's another thing - the preventative maintenance on domestic brands tends to be less expensive than that of the Japanese brands. Especially Toyota .

As for the guy who called Chevy a 'low-end junk brand' well, you're full of it, dude. I drive a 2001 Chevy S-10 and it does not give me trouble. That being said, I also take care of my things. Sadly, most people these days don't want to do any maintenance on their vehicles, computers, homes, et al.

Amen.

My escort didn't give me a lick of trouble until I blew the waterpump completely on the freeway at 70 mph. At 147,000 miles. Would still be running if I had been smart enough to just park the damned car when I couldn't find the coolant leak and let a pro do it.

No, no, no my fellow brethren Accord owner what I referring to was that a 2002 Chevy Cavalier going 142,000 miles without a hiccup was rare and few and far between. I really don't know anything about how common a timing chain is.

Not as rare as you'd think. I looked at a number of them before I settled on the Grand Am and saw a lot of them at 120 - 125K.

Timing chains are, indeed, a rare breed. My 1989 Temp had one, my 2000 Focus doesn't. Figure that one out.

Agreed. My '94 Escort also had a timing belt. No thanks, give me a timing chain anyday....

Have you ever driven a Honda? Even the Fit is a hell of a fun car to drive.

I have driven a Fit. It may be fun to drive, but not when you're 6' 1". My legs don't bend in THAT many places.

 

[Ward Fowler]

They built some sturdy cars back in the day.

I got my first blowjob in a brush-painted, orange '72 Pontiac Firebird, and if my kicking legs didn't break through the floorboard, nothing would.

Joe, buys American

Well, there you have it. A ringing endorsement for quality American manufacturing if I've ever heard one.

Come to think of it, I also busted many a nut in a girlfriend's Plymouth Duster. And a few years later, I managed to successfully have intercourse in a Renault Le Car.

Is my dick spit the kiss of death to auto manufacturers?

If so, watch out, Honda: we're taking the Odyssey camping this summer ...

Joe,

Dear Lord.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

I've never had a GM vehicle that didn't start to have major problems with it within 4 years of owning it. This is my tenth year with my 2000 Honda Accord and my sixth year with my 2004 Toyota 4Runner and I have had no problems with either vehicle..

And this is my 6th year driving a 1997 Pontiac Grand Am with 132000 current miles on it. It runs like a top.

And yet, my Dad's 2003 Toyota Camry with 50,000 on the clock has just had it's steering rack replaced at $1600.

The Japanese brands are NOT immune from having major problems and the American brands do NOT build crap cars. Fact is that all the brand itself is is an indicator. While I'll agree that Japanese brands are better indicators of reliability, they're not the be all and end all.

Here's another thing - the preventative maintenance on domestic brands tends to be less expensive than that of the Japanese brands. Especially Toyota .

As for the guy who called Chevy a 'low-end junk brand' well, you're full of it, dude. I drive a 2001 Chevy S-10 and it does not give me trouble. That being said, I also take care of my things. Sadly, most people these days don't want to do any maintenance on their vehicles, computers, homes, et al.

Amen.

My escort didn't give me a lick of trouble until I blew the waterpump completely on the freeway at 70 mph. At 147,000 miles. Would still be running if I had been smart enough to just park the damned car when I couldn't find the coolant leak and let a pro do it.



Not as rare as you'd think. I looked at a number of them before I settled on the Grand Am and saw a lot of them at 120 - 125K.

Timing chains are, indeed, a rare breed. My 1989 Temp had one, my 2000 Focus doesn't. Figure that one out.

Agreed. My '94 Escort also had a timing belt. No thanks, give me a timing chain anyday....

Have you ever driven a Honda? Even the Fit is a hell of a fun car to drive.

I have driven a Fit. It may be fun to drive, but not when you're 6' 1". My legs don't bend in THAT many places.

Hey, thanks for proving my point for me:

The fact is that I could take a dump all day on GM as far as quality and reliability is concerned compared to Toyota or Honda and people are going to come out of the woodwork with their anecdotal stories about the Buick they had for 25 years or Cavalier that went 142K miles with no problems but it still doesn't change the fact that overall, they aren't reliable in general which is the main reason they depreciate so quickly and Hondas and Toyotas don't. Nor does it change the fact that it's the primary reason why they are outselling U.S. automakers in U.S.

Also, I don't know what you're talking about as far as maintenance costing more because an oil change and a brake job doesn't cost any more for my vehicles now than it did when I owned American. So I'd like a little clarification on that.

 

[Colonel Green]

I've never owned a GM product, but I have a vivid memory of being woken at 3am by my little brother calling for a ride home from work because his 6 month old 2002 Sunfire wouldn't start

 

[msbae]

They said in January that Saturn was going to be dropped which makes no sense at all as Saturn is actually profitable.

Saturn never made money for GM in it's history. It was a bad idea. Making one or two good small cars for Chevy would have been much more efficient than having a whole division. Roger Smith was not a good leader for GM in the 1980's. (He's also the first of these 'businessmen' to be running the company too. That didn't turn out well.)

I am curious about the Taurus, though. What was the deal a couple years ago about the big hoopla with brand being retired permanently and then 6 months later I was seeing Taurus commercials again?

Ford hired Alan Mulally (sp?) from Boeing to help them deal with unions and reorganize the company. Alan decided that getting rid of an iconic nameplate was stupid and demanded that it be brought back.

Also, I had a 1982 Buick Riviera once. That car didn't finally die until 2005. I have never seen a Japanese car last this long, nor have I seen one keeping around that long. Simply put, Japanese cars are boring and uglier than Sin. Even if depending on foreigners for transportation didn't bother me, I still wouldn't buy from those bums.

And that's why your opinion on this is as unreliable as GM's cars. You're a hater. That's why I said "typical response from a GM owner." I come from the perspective of a long-time GM customer who made the switch and won't go back until they make a decent midsize or compact car. It's not my fault that they won't do that and I won't be raped by a company that charges me more for an inferior product.

I'm not surprised that your 1982 Riviera lasted a long time. GM's luxury market has always been pretty damned reliable. I routinely see Honda Accords and Civics and Toyota Corollas and Camrys routinely that are 15 years older and older still kicking around. In fact there are more Toyota Corollas (all years) on the road than any other car.

Why don't I see lots of old Corollas on the streets of New Orleans?

I find it very funny that you're going to call me a hater with all the mud you're slinging at Detroit, Hawk.

Johnny, I have a 1999 Cavalier Z24 convertible in my Household. Considering how many times it's been wrecked by my younger siblings, I'm amazed that car is even road-worthy.

As for those that complain about the Feds interfering in the marketplace, well, we're not the only ones attending that dance...

VW sold 1.39 million vehicles across its nine major car and truck brands in the first three months of the year, 11.4 per cent fewer than last year. But as restricted finance and weak consumer confidence cut a swath through car markets, the German giant has grown its share from 9.7 to 11 per cent.

By comparison, Toyota is in a parlous state. The Japanese group is asking the government in Tokyo for up to $2bn (£1.4bn) in emergency loans as it faces its first net loss in 59 years. Output has been slashed – by a massive 53 per cent in February – and first- quarter estimates predict that 1.23 million vehicles will be delivered, 47 per cent down on last year.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a5326d50-332a-11de-9316-00144feabdc0.html

What the article doesn't mention is that the German state of Saxony owns a 20% stake in VW. Porsche AG owns 50% and wants more. None of the traditional rules of business seem to apply to this industry anymore, assuming they ever did.

GM offers 50% stake to Feds

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a5326d50-332a-11de-9316-00144feabdc0.html

^^^That scares me, despite some Government mouthpiece saying that Washington doesn't want to be in the car business.

Chrysler offers 55% stake to UAW

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=al89RU9gWof8&refer=home

^^^That scares me even more.

 

[Mallory]

GM offers 50% stake to Feds

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a5326d50-332a-11de-9316-00144feabdc0.html

^^^That scares me, despite some Government mouthpiece saying that Washington doesn't want to be in the car business.

Chrysler offers 55% stake to UAW

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=al89RU9gWof8&refer=home

^^^That scares me even more.

Nothing good will come from either of those.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

Saturn never made money for GM in it's history. It was a bad idea. Making one or two good small cars for Chevy would have been much more efficient than having a whole division. Roger Smith was not a good leader for GM in the 1980's. (He's also the first of these 'businessmen' to be running the company too. That didn't turn out well.)



Ford hired Alan Mulally (sp?) from Boeing to help them deal with unions and reorganize the company. Alan decided that getting rid of an iconic nameplate was stupid and demanded that it be brought back.

Also, I had a 1982 Buick Riviera once. That car didn't finally die until 2005. I have never seen a Japanese car last this long, nor have I seen one keeping around that long. Simply put, Japanese cars are boring and uglier than Sin. Even if depending on foreigners for transportation didn't bother me, I still wouldn't buy from those bums.

And that's why your opinion on this is as unreliable as GM's cars. You're a hater. That's why I said "typical response from a GM owner." I come from the perspective of a long-time GM customer who made the switch and won't go back until they make a decent midsize or compact car. It's not my fault that they won't do that and I won't be raped by a company that charges me more for an inferior product.

I'm not surprised that your 1982 Riviera lasted a long time. GM's luxury market has always been pretty damned reliable. I routinely see Honda Accords and Civics and Toyota Corollas and Camrys routinely that are 15 years older and older still kicking around. In fact there are more Toyota Corollas (all years) on the road than any other car.

Why don't I see lots of old Corollas on the streets of New Orleans?

Don't know what to tell you on that. Do the research on your own. What you see around you isn't really evidence is it?

I find it very funny that you're going to call me a hater with all the mud you're slinging at Detroit, Hawk.

Nothing funny about it or hypocritical. You are a hater in that your opinion is biased, not objective and based on nothing but an emotional attachment to the product all which makes you predisposed to hating Hondas and Toyotas without ever actually owning one. I've been GM customer seven times over and I all I'm doing is telling it like it is while in comparison the words out of your mouth are I don't care, blah, blah, blah, never buy a car from those bums. GM makes a dogshit product compared to Honda and Toyota, sorry. Not my fault. I'll go back to GM when they don't. So, no, I'm not a hater, I'm a pragmatist. It's not like you'd ever even consider a Honda or Toyota and I would consider buying a GM again if they cleaned up their act, so there's your difference.

As for those that complain about the Feds interfering in the marketplace, well, we're not the only ones attending that dance...

VW sold 1.39 million vehicles across its nine major car and truck brands in the first three months of the year, 11.4 per cent fewer than last year. But as restricted finance and weak consumer confidence cut a swath through car markets, the German giant has grown its share from 9.7 to 11 per cent.

By comparison, Toyota is in a parlous state. The Japanese group is asking the government in Tokyo for up to $2bn (£1.4bn) in emergency loans as it faces its first net loss in 59 years. Output has been slashed – by a massive 53 per cent in February – and first- quarter estimates predict that 1.23 million vehicles will be delivered, 47 per cent down on last year.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a5326d50-332a-11de-9316-00144feabdc0.html

What the article doesn't mention is that the German state of Saxony owns a 20% stake in VW. Porsche AG owns 50% and wants more. None of the traditional rules of business seem to apply to this industry anymore, assuming they ever did.

Seriously, why the holy fuck should I care what they do in other countries?

GM offers 50% stake to Feds

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a5326d50-332a-11de-9316-00144feabdc0.html

^^^That scares me, despite some Government mouthpiece saying that Washington doesn't want to be in the car business.

As well it should...

Chrysler offers 55% stake to UAW

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=al89RU9gWof8&refer=home

^^^That scares me even more.

Heard about this today too. Let the inmates run the Asylum, great idea. What's more disturbing is that the UAW--which produces nothing-- has enough liquidity to purchase 55% of Chrysler.

 

[Hoser]

What's more disturbing is that the UAW--which produces nothing-- has enough liquidity to purchase 55% of Chrysler.

The United Auto Workers union’s retiree health-care fund will own 55 percent of Chrysler LLC in exchange for cutting in half the automaker’s $10.6 billion cash obligation to the trust,

.

 

[Bisz]

Well one third of the vehicles being produced here on one of the lines at NUMMI are Pontiac Vibes. Should prove to be an interesting day...

I built some of the welding equipment for the Matrix and Vibe at NUMMI.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

What's more disturbing is that the UAW--which produces nothing-- has enough liquidity to purchase 55% of Chrysler.

The United Auto Workers union’s retiree health-care fund will own 55 percent of Chrysler LLC in exchange for cutting in half the automaker’s $10.6 billion cash obligation to the trust,

.

So this is paper pushing and nothing else? There's still no money there? All they've done is make it so company cut their debt by $5.3 billion?

This is going to work out great!

 

[msbae]

1.) You are operating under a few false perceptions, Hawk.

My parents and a younger brother have Toyota vehicles in the form of a 2005 & 2006 Tundra and a 2007 FJ Cruiser. My best friend has a 2004 Nissan Frontier. I have driven the Toyota vehicles in question and rode around a lot in the Nissan. I am not impressed by any of them. Emotional attachment to Detroit or not, Japan's automakers have not impressed me.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I'm not a truck/Crossover person anyway. The reason I'm driving a 2001 S-10 now is because it was given to me by my father. He didn't want it anymore and I needed a vehicle. It was a more sensible alternative to the idea of buying a new vehicle I could not afford at the time. It has grown on me and serves me well. However, I still miss my Buick. Sheila and I (yes, she did have a name) had a lot of good times and misadventures. I will get another car like her one day, come Hell and High Water.

2.) My theory on why I don't see many old Corollas (or many other small cars) in this area is because of the poor road conditions. It's not uncommon for the locals to need front-end re-alignments once a year. Thank God I have rear-wheel drive.

3.) As for Chrysler, man, those poor bastards... As if what Daimler did to them for 9 years wasn't bad enough. MOPAR's troubles (and reaction to them) remind me of a needy woman that goes from one bad marriage to another, hoping it will work. I certainly hope that something works for them and soon. They don't deserve this torturous living Hell. I still don't like the idea of them getting hitched to Fiat, either. Low-end European cars never did well here unless it was a VW.

I keep the Big 3 in my prayers, as always.