Goodbye, Pontiac...

[CaptainHawk1]

The UAW, which is obsolete, is very, very much responsible. They've been kicking and screaming about concessions every step of the way.

The UAW didn't focus on heavy trucks and SUVs while gas prices rose and no one would buy them.
Ford saw the signs early and restructured, GM just stayed the course.

And of course, what's hurting them all is high health care costs for past and current workers in the US.

You want to see a symptom of the problem with GM Management and the UAW? Read about the soon-to-be-defunct (allegedly) Jobs Bank program, and if you don't like the source just do a Google search. The only good thing about the bailout of GM is that the Feds forced this monstrosity of a program to shut down after a quarter of a century.

The Jobs bank was supposed to be a retraining effort. Before that they'd automate a job and just lay the people off. The Jobs Bank was supposed to take those people and retrain them for other jobs instead of just letting them go.

But of course, it didn't work that way in the end, the automakers just stuck them in a room and gave them a VCR and some playing cards and ignored them.

Look, I blame both of them. There's no question that poor business model decisions and things like legacy costs have hurt them, but it's been a concerted effort by both parties.

Neither one of them seem very concerned about their biggest issue and that is that the quality of their product is crap and can't compete with Honda or Toyota.

The problem is that the Detroit 3 weren't diversified enough to be able to handle when consumer tastes and the economy would change.

Jackpot.

 

[msbae]

Looks like at least one Union Leader likes GM' current plan... even though his factory makes the Pontiac G5 (in addition to the Chevy Cobalt...)

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/04/27/ap6343444.html?partner=alerts

Dave Green better hope his plant gets the task of building the Chevy Cruze or else his factory may get shut down after Cobalt production ends in the next year or so.

As for the guy who called Chevy a 'low-end junk brand' well, you're full of it, dude. I drive a 2001 Chevy S-10 and it does not give me trouble. That being said, I also take care of my things. Sadly, most people these days don't want to do any maintenance on their vehicles, computers, homes, et al.

 

[Sephiroth]

couldn't they drop Buick & Saturn instead? *goes out to sit in my Trans-Am*

 

[CaptainHawk1]

Looks like at least one Union Leader likes GM' current plan... even though his factory makes the Pontiac G5 (in addition to the Chevy Cobalt...)

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/04/27/ap6343444.html?partner=alerts

Dave Green better hope his plant gets the task of building the Chevy Cruze or else his factory may get shut down after Cobalt production ends in the next year or so.

As for the guy who called Chevy a 'low-end junk brand' well, you're full of it, dude. I drive a 2001 Chevy S-10 and it does not give me trouble. That being said, I also take care of my things. Sadly, most people these days don't want to do any maintenance on their vehicles, computers, homes, et al.

Which is the typical response from a GM owner. Don't blame the consumer. Honda and Toyota vehicles don't have the problems that GM vehicles have in general and maintenance has nothing to do with it. Just because you have no problems with your S-10 (Chevy has had a pretty good history with their light trucks anyway but that's another debate) it doesn't mean that you represent the majority of GM customers.


You want an easy indicator of who makes a more reliable vehicle, just look at resale value.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

couldn't they drop Buick & Saturn instead? *goes out to sit in my Trans-Am*

They said in January that Saturn was going to be dropped which makes no sense at all as Saturn is actually profitable.

 

[John Picard]

couldn't they drop Buick & Saturn instead? *goes out to sit in my Trans-Am*

They said in January that Saturn was going to be dropped which makes no sense at all as Saturn is actually profitable.

Some of the Saturn dealers, and a private investment group in Oklahoma City, are looking to buy Saturn.

Some guy on another forum I'm on wanted to bash American cars, bragging how Nissan Altimas are much superior to the Ford Taurus. Here's what I found:

I work at a Ford dealer, our cars are as good or BETTER than the Japanese brands.

You can't be serious. There isn't a car made by the big 3 that can compete with any of the Japanese offerings. My '03 Altima just clocked over 90K miles and I've done nothing but brakes and oil changes since it was new. A Taurus would be on it's third tranny by now and be rusted up to the windows. There simply is no comparison.

Hmm, interesting issue with the 2003 Altima :

Significant Problems
Occasional problems on this vehicle are failures of the Crankshaft Position (CKP) and Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensors and screws falling out of the intake manifold Power Valve on the 2.5L engine. Failure of the CKP Sensor or the CMP Sensor may cause the engine to stall, and may cause the Check Engine Light to illuminate. When the intake manifold Power Valve screws fall out, they enter the engine through the intake manifold and can damage the spark plugs causing the engine to misfire or may damage the engine block. The cost to replace the CKP Sensor is $17.30 for parts and $26.00 for labor. The cost to replace the CMP Sensor is $58.64 for parts and $39.00 for labor. The cost to remove the intake manifold and replace the Power Valve screws is estimated at $50.00 for parts and $195.00 for labor. The cost to replace the engine short block is estimated at $2650.00 for parts and $1,040.00 for labor. In some cases, problems with the Engine Sensors and intake manifold Power Valve screws may be covered by a factory recall. All prices are estimates based on $65.00 per flat rate hour and do not include diagnostic time or any applicable sales tax.

Compared to a 2003 Ford Taurus:

Moderate Problems
An occasional problem on this vehicle is failure of the Fuel Pump. This failure will prevent the vehicle from starting. The cost to repair the Fuel Pump is estimated at $263.90 for parts and $110.50 for labor. All prices are estimates based on $65 per flat rate hour and do not include diagnostic time or any applicable sales tax.

Seems like you're one of those who's stuck in the 1980's and keeps parroting that (all) American cars are junk.

 

[SeerSGB]

~sigh~ I had a 91 Grand Am just after highschool. Loved that car, one of the best I've ever owned; straightened many a two lane mountain road with that car. Only got rid of it cause the transmission fucked up one winter and I didn't have the money to get it fixed. Man, I miss that thing.

So long Pontiac...

 

[CaptainHawk1]

couldn't they drop Buick & Saturn instead? *goes out to sit in my Trans-Am*

They said in January that Saturn was going to be dropped which makes no sense at all as Saturn is actually profitable.

Some of the Saturn dealers, and a private investment group in Oklahoma City, are looking to buy Saturn.

Some guy on another forum I'm on wanted to bash American cars, bragging how Nissan Altimas are much superior to the Ford Taurus. Here's what I found:

Hmm, interesting issue with the 2003 Altima :


Compared to a 2003 Ford Taurus:

Moderate Problems
An occasional problem on this vehicle is failure of the Fuel Pump. This failure will prevent the vehicle from starting. The cost to repair the Fuel Pump is estimated at $263.90 for parts and $110.50 for labor. All prices are estimates based on $65 per flat rate hour and do not include diagnostic time or any applicable sales tax.

Seems like you're one of those who's stuck in the 1980's and keeps parroting that (all) American cars are junk.

Well, there's a reason why the Taurus has been around so long and Nissan isn't in the same ballpark as Honda or Toyota. Sorry, Nissan owners.

No, I won't take a dump on Ford as they seem to be doing a decent job at keep themselves afloat. Time will tell as far the how reliable the newer line is (but it does look nice).

I am curious about the Taurus, though. What was the deal a couple years ago about the big hoopla with brand being retired permanently and then 6 months later I was seeing Taurus commercials again?

~sigh~ I had a 91 Grand Am just after highschool. Loved that car, one of the best I've ever owned; straightened many a two lane mountain road with that car. Only got rid of it cause the transmission fucked up one winter and I didn't have the money to get it fixed. Man, I miss that thing.

So long Pontiac...

No way!

A '91 Grand Am with a transmission that shit the bed???

Wow! What a coincidence that both my '91 Grand Am and '94 Buick Skylark (same car) had the exact same thing happen to them!

 

[RevDMV]

couldn't they drop Buick & Saturn instead? *goes out to sit in my Trans-Am*

They said in January that Saturn was going to be dropped which makes no sense at all as Saturn is actually profitable.

Talking with some of the folks I know, much of this is about the ability to drop dealerships and reduce channel costs.

The more profitable vehicles will just be badged with a bowtie and continue on.

 

[msbae]

couldn't they drop Buick & Saturn instead? *goes out to sit in my Trans-Am*

They said in January that Saturn was going to be dropped which makes no sense at all as Saturn is actually profitable.

Saturn never made money for GM in it's history. It was a bad idea. Making one or two good small cars for Chevy would have been much more efficient than having a whole division. Roger Smith was not a good leader for GM in the 1980's. (He's also the first of these 'businessmen' to be running the company too. That didn't turn out well.)

I am curious about the Taurus, though. What was the deal a couple years ago about the big hoopla with brand being retired permanently and then 6 months later I was seeing Taurus commercials again?

Ford hired Alan Mulally (sp?) from Boeing to help them deal with unions and reorganize the company. Alan decided that getting rid of an iconic nameplate was stupid and demanded that it be brought back.

Also, I had a 1982 Buick Riviera once. That car didn't finally die until 2005. I have never seen a Japanese car last this long, nor have I seen one keeping around that long. Simply put, Japanese cars are boring and uglier than Sin. Even if depending on foreigners for transportation didn't bother me, I still wouldn't buy from those bums.

 

[John Picard]

couldn't they drop Buick & Saturn instead? *goes out to sit in my Trans-Am*

They said in January that Saturn was going to be dropped which makes no sense at all as Saturn is actually profitable.

Saturn never made money for GM in it's history. It was a bad idea. Making one or two good small cars for Chevy would have been much more efficient than having a whole division. Roger Smith was not a good leader for GM in the 1980's. (He's also the first of these 'businessmen' to be running the company too. That didn't turn out well.)

I am curious about the Taurus, though. What was the deal a couple years ago about the big hoopla with brand being retired permanently and then 6 months later I was seeing Taurus commercials again?

Ford hired Alan Mulally (sp?) from Boeing to help them deal with unions and reorganize the company. Alan decided that getting rid of an iconic nameplate was stupid and demanded that it be brought back.

Yes, but what killed the value of the Taurus was teaming with Hertz and including them in the fleet sales. Who the hell wants to buy a car that's going to depreciate in value faster than an ice-cube can melt in the desert of Iraq?

 

[CaptainHawk1]

couldn't they drop Buick & Saturn instead? *goes out to sit in my Trans-Am*

They said in January that Saturn was going to be dropped which makes no sense at all as Saturn is actually profitable.

Saturn never made money for GM in it's history. It was a bad idea. Making one or two good small cars for Chevy would have been much more efficient than having a whole division. Roger Smith was not a good leader for GM in the 1980's. (He's also the first of these 'businessmen' to be running the company too. That didn't turn out well.)

I am curious about the Taurus, though. What was the deal a couple years ago about the big hoopla with brand being retired permanently and then 6 months later I was seeing Taurus commercials again?

Ford hired Alan Mulally (sp?) from Boeing to help them deal with unions and reorganize the company. Alan decided that getting rid of an iconic nameplate was stupid and demanded that it be brought back.

Also, I had a 1982 Buick Riviera once. That car didn't finally die until 2005. I have never seen a Japanese car last this long, nor have I seen one keeping around that long. Simply put, Japanese cars are boring and uglier than Sin. Even if depending on foreigners for transportation didn't bother me, I still wouldn't buy from those bums.

And that's why your opinion on this is as unreliable as GM's cars. You're a hater. That's why I said "typical response from a GM owner." I come from the perspective of a long-time GM customer who made the switch and won't go back until they make a decent midsize or compact car. It's not my fault that they won't do that and I won't be raped by a company that charges me more for an inferior product.

I'm not surprised that your 1982 Riviera lasted a long time. GM's luxury market has always been pretty damned reliable. I routinely see Honda Accords and Civics and Toyota Corollas and Camrys routinely that are 15 years older and older still kicking around. In fact there are more Toyota Corollas (all years) on the road than any other car.

 

[Shatmandu]

They built some sturdy cars back in the day.

I got my first blowjob in a brush-painted, orange '72 Pontiac Firebird, and if my kicking legs didn't break through the floorboard, nothing would.

Joe, buys American

 

[CaptainHawk1]

They built some sturdy cars back in the day.

I got my first blowjob in a brush-painted, orange '72 Pontiac Firebird, and if my kicking legs didn't break through the floorboard, nothing would.

Joe, buys American

Well, there you have it. A ringing endorsement for quality American manufacturing if I've ever heard one.

 

[John Picard]

My 2002 Chevy Cavalier went 142,000 miles before being totaled thanks to a woman who rolled a stop sign. Great damned car that actually had a timing chain, rather than a belt.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

My 2002 Chevy Cavalier went 142,000 miles before being totaled thanks to a woman who rolled a stop sign. Great damned car that actually had a timing chain, rather than a belt.

Rare and few and far between.

 

[John Picard]

My 2002 Chevy Cavalier went 142,000 miles before being totaled thanks to a woman who rolled a stop sign. Great damned car that actually had a timing chain, rather than a belt.

Rare and few and far between.

Well, by 2002 the ignition problems had been resolved and there was a recall that dealt with a sticker under the hood. I am also anal about maintaining my vehicles, so all filters, fluids, and other preventative maintenance was performed on a regular basis. Hell, I got over 100,000 miles out of the factory brakes. That engine ran like a Swiss watch and purred like a kitten. Even through crash data says otherwise, it held up very well in the collision, which was at 45mph.

 

[SeerSGB]

Also, I had a 1982 Buick Riviera once. That car didn't finally die until 2005. I have never seen a Japanese car last this long, nor have I seen one keeping around that long. Simply put, Japanese cars are boring and uglier than Sin. Even if depending on foreigners for transportation didn't bother me, I still wouldn't buy from those bums.

Hells, my mother has a '79 Ford F-150 6cyl-- don't even know if it's the original engine-- and it's outlasted 4 cars in the last ten years. Nothing can kill those older cars, short of lack of money or a blown block; and with the latter you just take off the hood, pull the junk motor and drop in a new one over the weekend.

 

[Warp Coil]

My 2002 Chevy Cavalier went 142,000 miles before being totaled thanks to a woman who rolled a stop sign. Great damned car that actually had a timing chain, rather than a belt.

Rare and few and far between.

My 2006 Accord has a timing chain, too. I don't think they are as rare as you think.

 

[Tomato]

couldn't they drop Buick & Saturn instead? *goes out to sit in my Trans-Am*

Buick is the sales king in China.

I think Pontiac accounts for only like 2% of the cars in the NA market.